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HUG-1
29-05-2011, 08:21 PM
This thread is concerned with audio interconnect cables.

Kumar Kane
16-06-2011, 04:07 AM
I suppose that all the discussions on the speaker cables subject, applies here as well. All that is really needed is a length of good thickness copper wire. Mechanically, the interconnect has to also allow for a good quality, robust electrical connection to be made, so there need to be good quality end connectors at both ends of said wire. All else is probably in the unheard/unverifiable category, unless there is some impedance matching circuitry in the interconnect, in which case the comparison isn't apples and oranges anymore.

A question to which I suspect I know the answer - most interconnects are sold on the basis that they are directional, and there is a specific end for the source and the other then for the signal receiver, like a power amplifier, so that the interconnect is aligned with the signal/current path. Is this just clever marketing? Because to my knowledge, electricity doesn't care a jot about directionality?

BAS-H
16-06-2011, 03:45 PM
Just a suggestion. I've no actual knowledge. But I believe an interconnect differs from power leads and speaker cables in that they transmit very low-level signals, and are therefore subject to picking up interference that can actually be audible. So I believe an interconnect ought to be designed with some sort of shroud, like aerial coax, to block most of this.

I guess any old coax with suitable plugs would do.

The directionality thing might be due to the manufacturer's intention to ground only one end of the shroud (it's supposed to be the amplifier end), when the return signal flows through its own wire rather than the shroud itself, as is the case with ordinary coax.

Diminish
10-10-2011, 09:26 PM
Yes, Ben, you are correct about directionality being, in most cases, determined by the end of the interconnect where the shield is joined to the signal common. It isn't that the cables won't work if installed in the opposite direction, in fact, it might be desirable to so in certain applications. If you have a system with only one 3 wire component; lets say that component is your preamp. You could arrange the interconnects such that all the ends with shield and signal common bonded together terminate at the preamp. This would minimize your chances for group loops and the resulting hum caused by them. If you have all double insulated (2 wire) components, or a mixture, you would just follow the recommended directionality. The idea is to ground the shield at the source, and therefore, away from the signal's intended destination.

That said, there is another theory espoused by marketers saying that the direction that a wire is drawn in, which would be opposite the direction that it GOES ON to the spool and the same as the direction is COMES OFF the spool is audibly superior. PS Audio is one large cable manufacturer that makes this claim. Most bulk cables have directional arrows as well. In a DIY situation; the user has a choice of which end to bond the shield, or both, or neither for that matter. Perhaps the arrow is just there as a suggestion or to promote consistency. To my thinking, all audio cables (except for umbilical from separate power supplies) carry alternating current. This is true whether you're talking about power cables, interconnects, or speaker cables. Any directionality would have to be seen as "Diodicity" or the tendency for a conductor to pass current in one direction while attenuating it in the opposite direction. This would be a fatal flaw for any audio cable.

Kumar Kane
11-10-2011, 02:03 AM
To my thinking, all audio cables (except for umbilical from separate power supplies) carry alternating current. This is true whether you're talking about power cables, interconnects, or speaker cables.
Just to satisfy my curiosity - I thought that interconnects/speaker cables which carry signals as opposed to power have a low enough voltage/current for the current to be direct, and that only direct current would work to drive, for example, speakers. Or am I wrong (quite likely ), hence this post.

About the directionality issue - the point of ground hum would be obvious to the ears if the volume was low enough? But other than ground loop caused noise which would be of a gross kind, would there be any other change in sound quality caused by directionality? The brand name product literature seems to claim that to be the case if one sees the installation directions. Is that just clever marketing?

muypogi
11-10-2011, 03:19 PM
I think all the talk about directionality is bull. . . IMHO just my 2 cents.

Bought a Supra directional cable and the yellow Van Den Hull cable and found no difference in terms of advantage. From my experience, once you reach a certain build level or material quality, the price-performance ratio quickly drops off. I use the yellow D-102 III Hybrid mainly because it's the cheapest high-quality cable I could find that sounds nice and actually looks quite good.
There is an audible difference if you compare the D-102 to the el cheapo generic cables, but once you reach the level of the VDH, for me it's really a personal choice.

Diminish
11-10-2011, 08:09 PM
Kumar "I thought that interconnects/speaker cables which carry signals as opposed to power have a low enough voltage/current for the current to be direct, and that only direct current would work to drive, for example, speakers. Or am I wrong (quite likely ), hence this post."

Interconnects and speakers cables both carry an alternating current. It is this alternating waveform that represents the music you hear through your Harbeths or any other loudspeaker. If you're not comfortable with this explanation or my qualifications in giving it, let me submit three indirect proofs: #1) watch your full range driver cone: it goes both IN and OUT does it not? #2) manufacturers often list spec.s for capacitance and inductance for their audio cables; DC is not effected by either of these electrical properties. #3) If your amplifier actually did output a substantial amount of DC, for any length of time, your speakers would be long gone! You'd be talking to the warranty department rather than the Forum.

Again, the only cables in an audio system that do *not* carry AC are the umbilical cables that attach an outboard DC power supply to the component. (It is possible to have pulsing DC that constantly changes in amplitude, but never crosses the Zero Axis and never reverses direction.) An example of this would be "ripple" on a power supply; a decidedly bad thing for audio.

Another thing that might confuse you is the fact that speaker binding posts are often marked (+) Positive and (-) Negative. Don't confuse this with a battery, these markings refer to the polarity of the alternating waveform produced by your amplifier. The designer has it figured out that a positive going pulse should produce a compression, rather than rarefaction, and cause the cone to push outwards. The speaker will still work with the leads reversed, but polarity will be inverted 180*. This is audible to some people. If you invert only one speaker, then it becomes very audible. To me it sounds like you're listening inside the tank of a milk truck.
Now, with regard to your questions about directionality: I'm not sure if it was my response that you were seeking, perhaps not. In my first post to this thread I identified two different aspects of cable directionality. The first refers to the practice of bonding of the shield to the signal common in an RCA interconnect. The idea, here, is to prevent ground loops or an alternate path for current to flow to ground. Generally, you would connect the plug with the shield / common connection to the *source end*. This would channel any noise picked up by the shield away from the signal's destination. This is the same in shielded power cables (bonded on the line side). This is more of a termination strategy; quite different from the claims of actual conductor directionality made by some manufacturers. What they are saying is that; a "directionality" (or favored direction for current to flow) is imposed on the individual strands of copper as they are drawn out of the casting machine.

I believe that this is specific to OCC, Ohno Continuous Cast, or "single crystal" copper. If you go to the PS Audio website, they state that directionality is easily established by listening tests, and that they listen to a sample of every spool that arrives at their warehouse. PS Audio is far from the only manufacturer to make such a claim. Personally, I am sceptical of this, as stated earlier. If a wire conducts current better in one direction than the other, it is acting as a diode. Since all audio cables carry alternating current, this would not be a good attribute for a conductor to display. In all fairness, I would like to point out that this type of directionality is specific to OCC copper. I don't claim to have any knowledge of what is happening on the atomic level.

Kumar Kane
12-10-2011, 03:01 AM
let me submit three indirect proofs: #1) watch your full range driver cone: it goes both IN and OUT does it not? #2) manufacturers often list spec.s for capacitance and inductance for their audio cables; DC is not effected by either of these electrical properties. #3) If your amplifier actually did output a substantial amount of DC, for any length of time, your speakers would be long gone! You'd be talking to the warranty department rather than the Forum.


This is digressing from the subject of this thread, but I am no engineer and electricity is an even bigger mystery to me than mechanical things that tend to be visible, just curious and with enough knowledge to be dangerous - another way of saying little :-))

Would not the speaker moves be triggered by changes in the level of even DC current passing through the voice coil, thereby varying the levels of electro magnetism which is what moves the speaker cones?

{Moderator's comment: god forbid that there is any DC current passing through the speaker. DC at the speaker's input would move the coil/cone away from the natural rest position to another *fixed* position either offset inwards or offset outwards from rest depending upon how much current. Music superimposed on that non-central offset point would then be asymmetrically reproduced i.e clipped when loud because the cone would be able to travel further in either the ingoing or outgoing direction following the music. DC current and loudspeakers are a disastrous combination. A DC signal will heat-up the voice coil and if sufficient, fry it.}

espakman
02-09-2015, 11:22 AM
A good quality RCA cable will only cost a few euros. So that's a non issue.

hifi 87452
02-09-2015, 04:32 PM
A good quality RCA cable will only cost a few euros. So that's a non issue.

Hi,

A excellent RCA will sometimes cost a few hundred Euros... so it will be important!!! Believe me.... It's a FACT!!!

kind regards
Michael
Michael

willem
02-09-2015, 05:11 PM
It is a fact that some cables cost this much. It is not a fact that they sound any better. They are a waste of money.

Ianp92
02-09-2015, 06:05 PM
Regarding this.....there's no significant sonic differences between amplifiers

Does this solely refer to fidelity or are we throwing imaging/sound stage in the mix too ? Genuine question, I don't troll !

I'll put my cards on the table, I use a Croft 25R/7 combination and also have a very recently Quad serviced 34/304 and believe the two latter qualities to be improved with the Croft. Absolutely love the Quads too mind !

learning
02-09-2015, 06:10 PM
Hi,

A excellent RCA will sometimes cost a few hundred Euros... so it will be important!!! Believe me.... It's a FACT!!!

kind regards
Michael
Michael

What is a fact? That there are simple RCA cables that are grossly overpriced? Or that they are measurably superior to cheaper conductors of electrons?

Kumar Kane
03-09-2015, 10:14 AM
Hi,

A excellent RCA will sometimes cost a few hundred Euros... so it will be important!!! Believe me.... It's a FACT!!!

kind regards
Michael
Michael
This statement is the kind of hogwash that does not belong here. Unless said tongue in cheek. Given the background, I somehow doubt that.

A.S.
03-09-2015, 11:46 AM
This statement is the kind of hogwash that does not belong here. Unless said tongue in cheek. Given the background, I somehow doubt that.Well, our little A-B switch-over box would make quick work of a comparison of the most exotic RCA cable against a piece they give away with all-in-one systems, perhaps costing a few pennies to make.

We really don't need to enter into any sort of stressful intellectual debate about such a matter. We have the tools to prove or disprove. (See Shock-horror amp thread).

Again, no-one is trying to make a fool out of personal beliefs that do not stand up to scrutiny, nor impact on audio seller salaries. I can't prove, and I have no interest in proving, that fine Barker shoes are objectively any better made or more comfortable than fine Loakes shoes. I like them and that's all that matters.

The issue is striking a sensible balance between ones dearly held personal beliefs, objective or not, and those beliefs masquerading as universal truths used to modify the behaviour of others, unjustifiably.

acroyear
03-09-2015, 12:23 PM
The whole business of these magazines is to induce reader anxiety.

What we have seen here thus far is that under controlled conditions these alleged differences tend to disappear. The only issues that remain are input sensitivity, load independence and power to avoid clipping.

I have not read a hifi magazine in years (I have and I assumed their opinions on sound signatures to be valid from experience).

Pretty much every item examined is described by it's sonic prowess, even down to speaker cable terminations. I recently swapped out some uber cheap banana plugs that would loosen from the terminals or unscrew within their own two piece construction with some that I got in a large hardware chain, the new ones were $25 for two pairs and these have a much better construction.

Anyway I swapped those out without any consideration, without any anxiety regarding the sound and yet years ago along with a hifi magazine I might well have juggled with price vs performance and implemented such a change and sat there and checked to see if the bass was still tight, if the music still flowed.......

Edit: I actually sold some relatively inexpensive (or is that expensive?) audio cable, it was way too inflexible (a clue to what it was) to be practical, I got $250 for two 15 ft lengths, more than I paid for it, the $ went towards my C7's, I was using $4 worth of cable in its place with no discernible sonic difference though I have since swapped that for my very original Linn K20 that I had on my TV set up, I feel it looks better than the cheap stuff in its clear sheathing.

willem
03-09-2015, 12:59 PM
See here for a multitude of tests of cables of various kinds: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/06/musings-audio-cables-summary-non.html

ssfas
03-09-2015, 03:34 PM
See here for a multitude of tests of cables of various kinds: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/06/musings-audio-cables-summary-non.html

Wonderful. Karl Popper (who was nominally the senior professor in my university department, but I never saw him once - he was probably locked in his room thinking) would not appeal to AS's approach to audio objectivity.

His famous thing about falsifiability is unlikely to resolve the cable issue, which I consider on a par with achieving peace in the Middle East.

I think the only way to resolve the cable problem is to agree with everyone, especially Willem, and disagree at the same time, leaving the thing firmly in the realm of metaphysics.

We can then get on with our lives.

ssfas
03-09-2015, 03:46 PM
I should add that one of the certainties in life is that the audiophile with make at least one cable purchase that they come to regret.

But you may disagree and I may be wrong. And you may be right. Or wrong. Is that statement falsifiable? Who knows?

grandwazoo
03-09-2015, 03:50 PM
This is what I have learned:

A cable does three things to a signal: it attenuates the signal, it contributes its own inductive and capacitive reactance, and exposes the signal to electromagnetic energy.

The resistive losses at the distances we are talking about are pretty nil. One needs to make sure to get the right gauge for the length of run but beyond that this it is not a big deal. The capacitive and inductive losses are also pretty nil in my opinion. One brand of cable might vary in capacitance and inductance vs another because of the physical construction but many don't publish their specs so it's hard to know how much variability is out there. I don't hear audible differences when it comes to very small differences in capacitance and inductance. Do others? Maybe they do. Lastly, if you have a lot of RF in the home the shielding can be very important.

The cynic in me sees this as a way for companies to increase their margins, so be it. I am all for free enterprise, no one is going to die having purchased an expensive rca cable. However, as a consumer the burden of proof is on them to prove to me using measurements how their cable is better than something like belden which by the way is what the pro studios use. So far no one has come close to doing that. Caveat Emptor!

ssfas
03-09-2015, 04:38 PM
There is a presumption that for something to be good it has to be expensive and to be better it has to be more expensive.

This presumption may be false, especially with cables, probably life in general.

If a manufacturer can measure relative cable performance (which as grandwazoo points out they probably can't), and they created a Cable B that was by their measure better and cheaper to make than Cable A, would they sell Cable B for less?

I think not. And if I was them I wouldn't either.

Unless I've got it completely wrong, this line of thinking implies that foo cables and value for money are mutually exclusive.

willem
03-09-2015, 07:19 PM
If the market is competitive and transparent, such gains would be very temporary. It is precisely the lack of transparency that allows these gains to persist.

gabsiechan
04-09-2015, 01:04 AM
This is what I have learned:

A cable does three things to a signal: it attenuates the signal, it contributes its own inductive and capacitive reactance, and exposes the signal to electromagnetic energy.

The resistive losses at the distances we are talking about are pretty nil. One needs to make sure to get the right gauge for the length of run but beyond that this it is not a big deal. The capacitive and inductive losses are also pretty nil in my opinion. One brand of cable might vary in capacitance and inductance vs another because of the physical construction but many don't publish their specs so it's hard to know how much variability is out there. I don't hear audible differences when it comes to very small differences in capacitance and inductance. Do others? Maybe they do. Lastly, if you have a lot of RF in the home the shielding can be very important.

The cynic in me sees this as a way for companies to increase their margins, so be it. I am all for free enterprise, no one is going to die having purchased an expensive rca cable. However, as a consumer the burden of proof is on them to prove to me using measurements how their cable is better than something like belden which by the way is what the pro studios use. So far no one has come close to doing that. Caveat Emptor!

My take is that cables do matter, in terms of what they remove from the whole system. From source to to sound waves bouncing around the room. Unlike a pro studio which is acoustically optimised, cables which can, by design cause high frequency roll off, might reduce the audibility of clipping distortion generated in the system from being heard which may make a mismatched system sound smoother, or highly resistive cable , reducing bass energy could in theory improve the sound by giving the impression of clarity by heard by the listener.

Neither example would be neutral and would sound better or worse depending on your system, but might accidentally sound better than a neutral cable? Small step to sell it as something you would pay for..

gabsiechan
04-09-2015, 04:01 AM
Alan, I am able to easily supply three such leads for the purpose of this exercise. Would you be happy to have the forum in on this, if I send them?

One costs $1500 (my regret purchase from years ago), one $350 ( my "preferred" lead) and one costs $40 ( the one I use today after reading the forum posts over the last year or so.

I would send them via FedEx at my cost for the benefit of he thread, and I'm sure I'll get benefit from the objective results too!

learning
04-09-2015, 08:39 AM
For the same purpose, I would be happy to gift some rca interconnects bought from a rather idiosyncratic English manufacturer of pre/power amps.

They send my power amp into safety mode, unlike the freebie cables i have. They do conduct, however, just oddly, apparently.

gabsiechan
18-09-2015, 05:34 AM
My recommendation based on several decades of "tinkering".

1. Used to own and use various "levels" of Chord, Kimber, TaraLabs cables.

2. Went "back to basics - used "Blue Jeans", Commercial Audio, and generic "high street" RCA's

3. Compared with esoteric "DNM Cables", and a pair of Cyrus RCA's.

For detail, and clarity, in my system - which consists of a 135wpc SS Canadian (neutral, flat response) integrated, and a British CD player (Parallel DAC's, Class A output stage, large memory buffer, and proprietary laser mechanism....

Try the Cyrus RCA's. I think they are based on DNM's design, and are terminated with Eichmann Bullet Plugs. They are both neutral sounding, and very very clear (good detail). Don't know if it is because they are a monofilament, the lack of extra wrapping, very low capacitance/inductance etc, or simply because Eichmann plugs do actually improve the signal fidelity.

IF you can get the chance, I'd recommend at least listening with them before spending more money on fancier stuff. Not the cheapest, but better than the generic RCA's, and as good as it gets compared with the money thousands of dollars exotica.

Milosz
19-09-2015, 10:51 AM
I walked a similar path. Used to own expensive cables from MIT, Cardas, Acrolink etc., sold them all because at some point they stopped making sense to me and in the case of MIT's with their bulky boxes, I actually felt they can only make sound worse, not better, as it was rightly pointed out here at HUG, the best any cable can do whatsoever is *nothing* and the MIT's are conceptually very far from that objective.

In the end I bought DNM Reson IC and speaker cables and was using them for a couple of years. Then I found out there is no difference in sound between them and cheap pro cables from Cordial, Die Hard, Klotz etc. so I sold them too in the end. Now I'm using whatever I have at hand and stopped thinking about cables.

acroyear
19-09-2015, 01:11 PM
I walked a similar path. Used to have expensive cables from MIT, Cardas, Acrolink etc., sold them all because at some point they stopped making much sense to me and in the case of MIT's with their bulky boxes, I actually felt they only can make the sound worse, not better, as it was rightly pointed out best any cable can do whatsoever is *nothing* and the MIT's are conceptually far from that.

In the end I bought DNM Reson IC and speaker cables and was using them for a couple of years. Then I found out there is no difference in sound between them and cheap pro cables from Cordial, Die Hard, Klotz etc. so I sold them too in the end. Now I'm using whatever I have at hand and stopped thinking about cables.

Unless somebody can demonstrate that some specific interconnects/speaker cables are better at their job than another I have also joined the 'stopped thinking about cables' camp, I sold my Naim cable because it was simply too stiff to be practical, I got more than I paid for them and the $ went towards my compact 7's.

I now have two runs of cable, some old linn K20 (the stuff I originally bought with my first hifi, only downside was that I was sold two runs to biwire! I subsequently gave away one run to a friend) and some uber cheap monoprice 12 awg stuff that is probably not great quality, the clear sheath seems to be reacting with the copper, eitherway I have never been able to distinguish a difference between any of the wires, I use binding posts I got from a home store and all seems good.

Human nature however dictates that the Linn cable is being used with the Harbeths.....just in case it is better than the monoprice stuff, it does beg the question though, why should it be any better, or any worse.....rather than consider that I can simply play a CD.

Edit: Mirroring AS sentiment on cables, from the microphone to the end of the loudspeaker cable at home there must be hundreds if not thousands of bits of wire that the audio signal passes through on its journey, why (aside from practical thickness) should that of the interconnect of speaker cable be so specifically able to affect SQ seems ludicrous, if every separate bit of wire could interject its sonic personality audibly, then surely what we would hear at the loudspeaker at home would be something quite different to that recorded due to this huge cumulative effect, for me personally this leads me to ignore worries about wires sound, I'm more concerned with them fitting well enough, or not be so tight that you have to jiggle the back of your units alarmingly to unplug.

EricW
19-09-2015, 06:18 PM
In the end I bought DNM Reson IC and speaker cables and was using them for a couple of years. Then I found out there is no difference in sound between them and cheap pro cables from Cordial, Die Hard, Klotz etc. so I sold them too in the end. Now I'm using whatever I have at hand and stopped thinking about cables.

Same here: I have a couple of "audiophile" interconnects left over from those days, but I've recently tried the "Kabeldirekt" brand, available on Amazon (both .com and .co.uk) when I've needed a new audio or video cable (e.g. in a different length). Nicely made, no doubt in China (but sold by a German company, with the attendant quality control): nice connectors, nice materials, quite inexpensive. And seem to sound no different from my 10x or 20x the price audiophile cables.

gabsiechan
21-09-2015, 04:49 AM
What I am saying gentlemen is to try the Cyrus interconnects. I think the better sound may well be all about the eichman plugs rather than cable construction, but I'm interested if anyone else has heard what I've heard.

Milosz
21-09-2015, 10:06 AM
Yes, I had the Eichman plugs with my DNM Reson interconnects. Didn't like them because they were too tight for the inputs in my gear, it was hard to connect and disconnect and they were ripping gold plate on the sockets.

Besides that, I wasn't able to find anything special about them, but I must admit that it never crossed my mind to contemplate their sound.

Oh, just one thing that might be considered special: Eichman plugs are very light as they're made of some kind of plastic. Luckily I'm still strong enough to lift cables with standard plugs. I do not know how much longer though, as I'm inevitably getting old.

acroyear
21-09-2015, 12:23 PM
Yes, I had the Eichman plugs with my DNM Reson interconnects. Didn't like them because they were too tight for the sockets in my gear, it was hard to connect and disconnect and they were ripping gold plate from the sockets.

Besides that, I wasn't able to find anything special about them, but I must admit that it never crossed my mind to contemplate their sound.

I have found that different connector do have different grip/friction on inputs, as you say some are so tight that they can actually cause damage/potential damage especially as sometimes you have to wiggle the back of the unit considerably, I have an old chord chrysalis that works perfectly, slides on/off with ease but still attaches firmly, any future purchase of a cord will be determined by this practical aspect.

I've even had cables pull out part of the input socket.

ssfas
21-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Has anyone seen in the audio press or anywhere else for that matter anyone comparing two identical cables with different connectors and opining that they perform differently?

As Milosz suggests, plugs can be criticised if they don't fit properly and cause damage, but that's as far as I'm willing to go.

One of my offspring bought a vintage system a while back and the shop threw in the speaker cables, plugs and some interconnects for free. That should be standard policy and maybe people would stop fretting over these things.

ssfas
21-09-2015, 10:14 PM
I use DNM cables on my P3ESR bare wire connected and I used to do the same with my SHL5+. As the terminal plugs have grooved sides, they are easy to tighten with a pair of long-nose pliers. This cable was 2mm solid per strand and gave an incredibly firm connection.

It is also quite a cheap solution.

A.S.
21-09-2015, 10:27 PM
I learned a few insights about exotic speaker cables from a wannabe speaker cable-maker who visited me with some samples recently.

Basically, he's an industrial (military) production engineer. He has a supermarket audio system at home, listens to 80s pop (exclusively), has never been to a classical concert, never held a musical instrument, knows nothing about the recording process, nor audio equipment, nor audio distribution, retailing, marketing or indeed anything at all related to hi-fi, and he doesn't pretend that he does - credit to him. He's a thoroughly likable chap and I've known his father for many years.

What he does know a lot about is making money. That, he's an expert at, and he's discovered that there is $$$ to be made in audio cables. Or so he thinks. So he has "invented" an new speaker cable. This "invention" is entirely theoretical, and he's deliberately set about making it as complicated and visually impressive as he can. The spark of genius is that he's winkled out that there is in the cable trade, a facility called 'over-moulding'. This process takes a piece of cable (anything) and coats it in liquid plastic - any colour, any flexibility, any diameter - which rapidly cures, and can then be over printed. You feed in a reel of lighting flex bought on a market stall into the overmoulding machine, set the diameter, stiffness and colour of your dreams, and out comes the the new coated cable. All that remains is fanciful marketing BS and he's off.

The original application for cable over-moulding was to protect delicate cables in, for example, military aircraft or under-sea and it's a mature business.

You have to hand it to him. With no knowledge of cable physics, nor the audio trade, nor anything at all related to high fidelity sound nor the ability to listen critically he has now joined the ranks of myriad exotic cable makers and on the road to $$$. Over-moulding costs him $2 per metre. The base copper cable costs less than that. The target retail price he has in mind is around $300/mtr. There is a cast-iron certainty in his mind - irrational though it is to me - that the fancier the cable the better it must sound and so that no matter how cheap and nasty the base cable, once it is over-molded its sonic greatness is assured.

His greatest concern was to seek my advice on which RAL colour (https://www.ral-shop.com/product-category/ral-design/) he thought I thought (I am, obviously, an expert) would be a sure-fire winner, as he presented me with sheaves of RAL colour charts. We settled on a nice pink colour. Or maybe it was fluorescent lime green. Either way, he was delighted with my input and will shortly be presenting me with some "for listening testing". I can't wait. Of course, he's barking mad, but you have to hand it to him for chutzpah.

Talking of madness - here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQDTZcpsDE).

Milosz
21-09-2015, 10:56 PM
I use DNM cables on my P3ESR bare wire connected and I used to do the same with my SHL5+. As the terminal plugs have grooved sides, they are easy to tighten with a pair of long-nose pliers. This cable was 2mm solid per strand and gave an incredibly firm connection.

It is also quite a cheap solution.

I must admit that I did like DNM Reson speaker cables as cheap and practical solution but then I found these measurements here:

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/Cables3/TakeTheLead.html

Is it only me or the impedance of DNM Reson solid core speaker cable is hugely different from all remaining proper speaker cables and worryingly close to the Maplin XR31, which is a 300 Ohm VHF antenna cable not at all intended for use with loudspeakers? Apperently for some reason DNM Reson is intended for use with loudspeakers. Or maybe not. Puzzlingly, it looks like an antenna cable, too.

Anyway, I enjoyed the story about the wannabe young cable manufacturer. Streets in audio world seem to be paved with gold for some. And he's got one big advantage: he knows you so he's predestined to "know" what kind of cable will work best with your speakers. Good selling point for Harbeth owners.

ssfas
22-09-2015, 12:39 AM
Here's a $270 usb cable that appeared to be $2 of Chinese generic cable.
http://www.6moons.com/lettersfeedback/lettersfeedback_30.html

gabsiechan
22-09-2015, 01:21 AM
Milosz, the article you pointed to had a few interesting things to say: and I feel as though I'm defending the cable I use but I'm not - it's that you've noticed selectively, some comments over others. If the cable measurements are indeed accurate, what do people think about the effect of audible performance?

My DNM is not the one tested here, which is the 0.65mm cable, but the rather thicker 2mm cable. What does this do wrt RF inductance? I don't know. I also don't know how RF affects the amplifier or what the feedback circuit "sees"...interestingly, DNM also market and sell a "HF termination network" which is set up as a parallel circuit on one end of their speaker cables, presumably to deal with the problem introduced by their antenna cable!

Without resorting to wry or ironic tones, can somebody explain if these factors are relevant!? Additionally, the same article recommends the Townsend cable as closest to the amplifier signal at the speaker terminal. Would the improvements be audibly relevant? Note that Townsend isolda sells for in excess of 1000 pounds for 5m pairs.

Milosz
22-09-2015, 09:00 AM
Gabsiechan, I don't have any special interest in commenting on the DNM cables, I just owned (and still own) some of those cables, so I thought I might share my thoughts. I don't believe cables may have any impact on the sound, unless their measured performance is hugely different from what it normally should be. DNM seems to be one of those exotic cables, designed to be different from the pack.

To my knowledge, DNM has had just three speaker cable models: the original solid core, which has been measured in the article quoted above, and which I used to own, the Precision model and the new Resolution model, which I still own and sometimes use with my SHL5+. All of them look similar to antenna cables, and none of them seems to be 2mm in any dimension.

http://www.dnm.co.uk/datasheets/3DNMStereoCablesPr2Resolution.pdf

Also, I'm not interested in bla bla bla about cables, be it in the article I quoted or any other one. What matters to me is practical issues and the measurements, which is why I referred to this part of the article only.

acroyear
22-09-2015, 12:14 PM
Here's a $270 usb cable that appeared to be $2 of Chinese generic cable.
http://www.6moons.com/lettersfeedback/lettersfeedback_30.html

That's crazy. I needed a usb B cable to connect my pro amp (crown xti series) to laptop to do some DSP, I saw you could buy them for about $20 at the local electronics store (I'm sure they are cheaper now, it seems easier to find lower priced hdmi's for eg than a few years ago) and also saw pricey ones online claiming to do wonders for whatever they transmitted, I realized this was BS because the cable I got was about $2.50 from monoprice and amazingly enough it transferred the signal quite effectively to my amp and did the DSP I needed!!! I also use monoprice $4 HDMI cable and has been durable so far.

martin1305
22-11-2015, 02:42 PM
audiophiles spend a lot on cables to connect their audio equipment but are there people who invest a fortune on their video cables to create a better image on the tv ?

the only obvious differences I have noticed with cables is sometimes a speaker cable can be to thin or shielding is required under specific circumstances for phone cables.

willem
22-11-2015, 04:28 PM
I am not into the fancy interconnect religion, but I do buy decent quality. Apparently with hdmi this matters more if the cable length gets longer (as is sometimes unavoidable), or with future increased demands like UHD TV. See here for some tests: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/11/guest-review-measurements-quantum-hdmi.html Elsewhere in the chain, hdmi may create problems for audio quality, however: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/10/measurements-separate-vs-av-receivers.html

Gascho
22-11-2015, 07:36 PM
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Talking of madness - here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UQDTZcpsDE).
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Just watched this video now. Possibly the funniest iteration of that clip I've seen. I think they managed to fit in every generic cable review, too funny.

willem
06-03-2016, 11:59 AM
Here some interesting musings on digital cables: http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2016/03/musings-cable-claims-testimony-buyers.html#more
And here: https://medium.com/@skikirkwood/truth-lies-and-fraud-in-the-audiophile-world-a365e56c97c4#.pi6yklmlz