PDA

View Full Version : Testing P3ESR SE



Reinhard
07-04-2012, 08:59 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm new in this forum and got me a pair of P3ESR SE in maple for testing over the Easter days here in GERMANY.

These loudspeakers are absolutely stunning! Heard for five or six hours yesterday after unboxing them and will do a second listening round quite soon, which will be a pleasure I'm looking forward to (unfortunately my daughter who is student has to get up first **gg**).

There are however two points which are irritating me a little bit

1. The highs are very open, there's a tendency to reduce them a little bit via the amplifier which allows this (I however try to avoid this principally). These highs are unknown for me, as I'm coming from the warm sounding corner, was used to soft dome tweeters (DYNAUDIO) so far. Tried a set up of the PRESR with no toing-in and tried several loudspeaker-cables with no result to this point of running-in the speakers. Read several times the only way to get rid of this was a warm sounding amplifier

2. The chassis are very fast, also in stopping the sound. This I never heard before with other loudspeakers. Sometimes it seems to me, as if the sound "stops" or there are "holes" in the music if you get what I mean.

My set up is an older Accuphase E-207 (which has got enough power as P3ESR seems to like lots of it) and a new marantz CD-6004.

Any ideas to these two topics would be very much appreciated.

Greetings
Reinhard

b4sound
07-04-2012, 10:23 PM
Reinhard

Not that I can help with your analysis but which Dyn do you come from?

Art K
07-04-2012, 10:41 PM
It would seem that you have a system that should not be tipped up in the high frequency range. The P3ESR is very smooth and easy on the ears...at least mine are. What height are your stands and where are you ears in relation to the tweeter? What size is your room? I get a warmer presentation from my P3's by toeing in. Also consider that these may not be the speaker for you. I find that with every kind of music I listen to they are very satisfying, you may not.

Reinhard
08-04-2012, 02:51 PM
I'm coming from several DYNAUDIOS, last were Focus 140.

My Ears ears are slightly over the tweeters (5cm). The distributor advised me that maple is said to be one of the hardest wood and in combination with SE-Version might sound not warm enough. There were audible differences between the chosen wood/veneer. Any experiences to this point?

@ArtK: which veneer did you choose, have you got the SE-version?

Greetings

Art K
08-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Cherry and yes I have the SE. Did you try toeing in a bit? What is your room like...hard reflective surfaces or...?

b4sound
09-04-2012, 10:11 AM
Reinhard

If you have lived with your F140 for a while, it may take some getting used to the P3ESR. I have previously owned F110 and they are fantastic speakers. I would imagine (failing is my audio memory) the P3ESR will retrieve a bit more detail than the 140 but no doubt you are likely to miss the bass from the 140s too? I am a big fan of Dyns and have personally found that whilst the vocals is very sweet on the P3ESR, would tend to agree that the highs still have a slight edge and this is even running them with a valve amp. My setup may still have some possible matching issues and am awaiting a DAC to hear if it may tame the edginess of the Sonos source which I have always never been a big fan of. The senior guys will likely shoot me down and tell me that there is no difference to be heard in a controlled environment... :)

{Moderator's comment: now does our speech test track sound? That is where to start analysis. It sound perfectly sweet (even non hi-fi like) on our P3ESRs}

b4sound
09-04-2012, 11:41 AM
{Moderator's comment: now does our speech test track sound? That is where to start analysis. It sound perfectly sweet (even non hi-fi like) on our P3ESRs}

Where please is this track?

A.S.
09-04-2012, 12:39 PM
The section on Speech Testing is here (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?185-Speech-test-recordings-where-to-obtain).

May we suggest you read it first to get some background on the subject and then download the file please?

Would you also have a careful close-up look at both tweeter domes to be sure that they have not been damaged or creased.

Reinhard
11-04-2012, 07:16 AM
Reinhard

If you have lived with your F140 for a while, it may take some getting used to the P3ESR... but no doubt you are likely to miss the bass from the 140s too?

Hi, b4sound.

I think, you hit the nail on the head. First it is of course a matter of getting used to the new loudspeakers and you might also be right that at least with certain records the P3ESR may be a bit edgy in the highs. There will be a little work to be done in finetuning my environment (speaker cable, room damping, perhaps electronics).

To be honest, I do not miss the bass of the Focus 140 which often was a bit too heavy. What I miss a little is that the 140 was able to play louder but that's simply a matter of physics.

So thank you all for your advice!

Gr

Reinhard
12-04-2012, 06:36 AM
Yesterday I read in STEREOPLAY Edition "100 best loudspeakers of the world" that SE-version should deliver some kind of "freshness" in the highs. So I ask myself, if the standard P3ESR would be the better choice for people who like the highs a little bit less open. Anyone who heard the standard against the SE-version and can confirm this?

Greetings Reinhard

HUG-1
12-04-2012, 09:00 AM
Yesterday I read in STEREOPLAY Edition "100 best loudspeakers of the world" that SE-version should deliver some kind of "freshness" in the highs....Imaginary difference. "Should" means what?

Please familiarise yourself with the thousands of works written here about cables etc.. The SE fancy cable is fitted for marketing reasons and marketing reasons alone.

Reinhard
12-04-2012, 11:04 AM
Thanks a lot for your answer, HUG-1.

Funny enough, as the words are shown in the mag as a personal quotation from Mr. Shaw. Your answer helps saving a little money and spend it for a few CDs ;-))

A.S.
12-04-2012, 02:25 PM
Could you provide the full quotation please. Magazine. Journalist. Exact 'quotation'.

I'd rather have my teeth pulled out through my rectum than make ludicrous, unsubstantiated claims for the 'sonic benefits' of the OFC cable, that being the only difference between the std. and SE. The cable does, admittedly, look nice in the blue sheath (if you like that sort of thing.)

NOTE: Proven innumerable times, it doesn't matter what I say or believe ......

Reinhard
12-04-2012, 02:52 PM
No offence, Mr. Shaw ;-))

Magazine is a Special Edition (! haha) of STEREOPLAY "100 Die besten Lautsprecher der Welt" (100 The best loudspeakers all over the world). You can read "Die hochwertige Innenverkabelung bringt etwas mehr Frische" (the high quality wiring in the cabinet delivers a little bit more freshness). There's a photo of you to be seen with your name and exact quotation with quotation marks is "Es ist erstaunlich, was die Verkabelung der neuen SE-Version bringt" (It is amazing, what the wiring of the new SE version delivers, or achieves, [my english is not that perfect] ;-)). Journalist is not stated.

I'm getting a little bit afraid about your teeth, please keep them where they are, it's just journalism...

Best wishes

EricW
13-04-2012, 03:01 PM
it's just journalism...

Best wishes

Or "just marketing", rather ...

As with press releases and such documents, it would not be at all surprising to find that the putative author of the statement never in fact spoke those words himself.

However, this is how misperceptions are continued and perpetuated.

Reinhard
13-04-2012, 03:53 PM
However, this is how misperceptions are continued and perpetuated.

In the meantime I read the disussion in the parallel thread, so I am up to date concerning Mr. Shaws position to the SE topic.

On the other hand I must say: as I am new to this forum and therefore quite impartial I also would have expected a sonic difference, as SE versions with technical changes always put in your mind an improvement over the standard version. Even retailers I contacted told me there was a sonic difference to more precision and freshness (!). One has to bear in mind that only very few people are readers in this forum.

So I fear the only way to get rid of this misunderstandig is to only produce SE versions for the future. Or to provide all standard versions with the "special wiring". To be honest, aside from knowing now that there are no sonic differences I would hesitate to buy the standard version. Not only because reselling an SE version might be easier but as an enthusiast not all decisions in life depend on logics. **gg**

Anyway, there are more important things in life to discuss ;-))

{Moderator's comment: Harbeth just cannot win can it. Seems that honesty doesn't pay. We will not discuss this internal cable wiring subject ever again here as there is nothing to add. SE wiring slows down production but is mandated by some markets and we have to fit it.}

EricW
13-04-2012, 04:54 PM
{Moderator's comment: Harbeth just cannot win can it. Seems that honesty doesn't pay. ...

Not true. The honesty on offer at the HUG is highly appreciated. And commercial realities are commercial realities. There may be some apparent inconsistency between the two, but the world's a complicated place, and you're business people, not academicians or missionaries. I think that's understood, and not considered as a negative. It's just how it is.

A.S.
13-04-2012, 05:49 PM
A couple of thoughts crossed my mind this afternoon - a welcome break from working intensively on the simulator.

1) I'm wondering how many qualified marketing people there are in the industry, like our youngest son. Clearly there are none on the other side of the desk. There is no doubt that even at his tender age, his three years at university has given him deep insight into human behaviour, and how it relates to consumption. The university turns out 'general purpose marketing people', and the universality and predictability of human behaviour means that he's set up for life working in any product area (he currently choses IT) from toothpaste to missile launchers. What we here (that means me, really) don't seem to be able to expose for the benefit of the consumer, is how their predictability en masse is the marketeer's open doorway. The OFC cable issue is a classic: the consumer wants to believe in that last drop of fairy dust. I have disappointed a would-be buyer. That's stupid of me. Won't happen again.

2) We have failed to 'control the communication initiative'. That means that, (well intentioned) third parties speak or appear to speak with as much, or more, authority than us, the manufacturer. I really cannot understand why their voice is preferred and deemed more trustworthy and less biased (!) than ours.

3) What audiophiles just cannot recognise is that they are extremely easy to profile from the marketees side of the table. Pick three and study them and you understand the entire market for audio gear. Although the product is (highly) technical the consumer's evaluation process is highly non-technical and hangs on phantom benefits like OFC cable*. The audiophiles thought and evaluation process is perfectly understood by suppliers. The type of colours, feel, packaging of the product - the choice of emotive words which appeal directly to the heart - it's all - repeat, all - honed to perfection.

It's evident that even if I was chained to the PC 24 hours a day, bashing out pragmatism, based on David's cautioning about slow-moving human behaviour, I'm fearful that I'll be here saying the same thing from a bath chair in thirty years .... or is it more effective that it appears? We've just finished our most successful trading years in 35. Is the tide of reason slowly shifting in our direction? Or is that uncorrelated? I wish I knew!!

* Did you know that all copper cable is 'OFC' whether sold as such? If oxgen present in the production process.............. VERY BIG BANG! People die.

EricW
13-04-2012, 08:26 PM
.... is it more effective that it appears? We've just finished our most successful trading years in 35. Is the tide of reason slowly shifting in our direction? Or is that uncorrelated? I wish I knew!!



I had my knuckles rapped on this issue once before, when I realized my P3ESRs were not the SE version - audiophile that I was, I was concerned that I had somehow received an inferior product. I've since gotten over that feeling.

I believe rationality wins out in the end.

I believe a brand can rely on "marketing" in the traditional sense, or it can cultivate a reputation for quality and integrity (a deserved one). The latter may be the less conventional approach, but I think it can work at least in some cases. Harbeth is an example.

b4sound
14-04-2012, 08:05 AM
The section on Speech Testing is here (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?185-Speech-test-recordings-where-to-obtain).

May we suggest you read it first to get some background on the subject and then download the file please?

Would you also have a careful close-up look at both tweeter domes to be sure that they have not been damaged or creased.

Right - I have finally read the thread and downloaded the file from post #17 (there was another link on Pg2 but that did not work).
The voices sound clear, very much in the room with me, non echoey, no harshness.

Alan, I am not yet prepared to remove the grille to look at the tweeters just yet (there some trick to this which I had read on this forum) but quite sure what I am hearing is not damaged tweeters.

I'll post my thoughts on the DAC received earlier this week in the DAC thread.