Sources for your Harbeths

[A.S.]

This thread concerns finding the best sources for your Harbeth speakers.

[John Parkyn]

Just wondering if any of you are using (have used) an iPod as a source in your setup.

What is your reaction? Enjoyable? Do Harbeths like iPods?

Do you have any advice for us techno laggards (Luddites!) who might want to venture into terra incognito?

John

[John Parkyn]

Which CD players, SACD players, or turntables do you recommend?



Are any of your recommendations especially Harbeth friendly?

[Hu]

After purchasing M30 and Quad gear, I bought Meridian G07 as source. Well, that made the sound too bright for my taste,so I changed it into Quad 99CDP2, sounds more natural. Now I am using Plinius 9200 (borrowed) integrated amp with Quad CDP. Today I listened to Bach complete violin sonatas played by Grumiaux and Jaccottet (Philips 454-011), sound was elegant and splendent, as I could recall how I described the sound of this CD with Meridian/Quad, that was some sort of scream, but now I wonder how Meridian CDP would sound with Plinius amp?

[AlanW]

I discovered a marvelous sounding CD player for a ridiculously low price: the Sharp DX-650. I use it with my Super HL5's. These can be had on eBay for $10 to $20 plus shipping. Just check with the seller to verify that it is in good working order. The DX-650 has a spacious, analogue-like sound that is superb on classical orchestral music. Elsewhere in my system I have expensive tube electronics, and would not consider using the Sharp unless it was a truly outstanding unit. I'd love to hear from other Harbeth owners who give the unit a try.

NOTE: DO NOT BUY THE DX-650 (BK). IT IS NOT THE SAME AS THE DX-650, AND IS AN INFERIOR SOUNDING UNIT.

By the way, I also use a Well-Tempered Turntable and Arm with upgrades, and a Benz Glider cartridge. The table is very quiet and musical sounding. This turntable surpasses any of the CD players I've tried in my sytem in terms of 3-dimensionality and "liveness" of the sound, and I've tried dozens. Nevertheless, the Sharp is an extremely enjoyable player to listen to.

[James Beltran]

Which CD players, SACD players, or turntables do you recommend? Are any of your recommendations especially Harbeth friendly?

Dear John,

I have had various systems running with my Harbeths and I must say that the Cyrus 8s with the power supply does give me lots of musical enjoyment. For more critical listening (not a term I like to use) I run my Musical Fidelity Kw SACD player which gives me most of the hi fi prerequisites when I feel I need it.Does it give me a whole load more of musical enjoyment? Perhaps .

Regards

[Ferdinand777]

Vpi scout, JMW 9 arm, shelter 501, bent audio step up, GSP Gold Era V.

Very musical combo.

[Ned Mast]

My criteria for components is basically transparency; I want them to present what is on the CD (my first choice of format) as unaltered as possible. I believe my solid state pre-amp and amp perform this function quite satisfactorily. (I do have a dbx equalizer in the system that I have used to compensate for some minor room induced frequency anomalies). But I have been a bit suspicious of my old Marantz CD67 CD player. As fortune would have it, a friend acquired a Lavry DA10 DAC, about which I had read good things. Running the Marantz into that clarified and improved the sound from my SHL5's noticeably. I've ordered one. I would now say that, next to my Harbeth speakers, a good DAC is the next most important item in my sound system. But which players have good DAC's in them, I don't know. While the Lavry DA10 is not cheap (and it is the bottom of their line), I suspect that one would have to spend more for a CD player that had a comparable DAC.

Ned

[Ytsejam]

I made similar experiences with a Benchmark DAC 1 which I'm using for several month now. Transport is a 10 year old Marantz CD 17 (Harbeth M30, Gamut D200 power amplifier). The sound is very transparent, clean and natural without any edginess. The improvement also with an Arcam Alpha 6 as amplifier was great.

Kind regards,
Thomas

[ClaudeP]

CD: Naim CDS3

Turntable: Rega Planar 3 (1982), RB300 tonearm (id.), Nagaoka MP50

I will likely upgrade the TT soon - current favorite is the OriginLive Aurora Gold.

As for the Naim... well I think it's one of the best CD players in the world (cannot afford a CD555!)

Claude

[Soundbyte]

Claude,
I am interested in the Naim CD players... I am thinking of CDX-2 but my question is
How do you rate Naim CD players as the whole?
Does Naim house sound is "Flat" soundstage?
Last Question.... Have you tried CDX-2 vs CDS3 cd player, and if you are limited of budget would you still go for CDS3?


Thanks for your help.


CD: Naim CDS3

Turntable: Rega Planar 3 (1982), RB300 tonearm (id.), Nagaoka MP50

I will likely upgrade the TT soon - current favorite is the OriginLive Aurora Gold.

As for the Naim... well I think it's one of the best CD players in the world (cannot afford a CD555!)

Claude

[Ned Mast]

Hello Soundbyte,

May I toss out an alternative to your up-grade of CD player? Before I do, though, I do have to say I don't know the price range of the Naim players you're considering and, also - by reputation - I'm sure they are excellent players. But if you're looking at more than $1000 for a new player, you might want to consider something like the Lavry DA 10 DAC along with whatever player you currently have as a transport. Both I and an audio friend have this unit and are exceedingly happy with it's performance. It has made a major difference in our enjoyment of digital reproduction and in our ability to hear the most subtle details of recordings. The website 'lavryengineering.com' has some information on that - and other - units. I believe Benchmark makes a comparably priced unit. Again, I'm not saying this to dissuade you from Naim - which I'm sure also sounds wonderful - but only pointing out that there are some alternatives for excellent digital reproduction at less than the prices of some of the very high-end players.

Ned

[leekb]

A few months back I had the privilege of doing a side-by-side comparison of the Lavry DA10 and the Benchmark DAC1. My findings are similar to the report here: Benchmark DAC1 and Lavry DA10 deathmatch (http://www.studioreviews.com/dac1-da10.htm).

[Naimeo]

Claude,
I am interested in the Naim CD players... I am thinking of CDX-2 but my question is
How do you rate Naim CD players as the whole?
Does Naim house sound is "Flat" soundstage?
Last Question.... Have you tried CDX-2 vs CDS3 cd player, and if you are limited of budget would you still go for CDS3?


Thanks for your help.

Although the C7 is supposed to sound good with most decent amps and sources, I found my ES3 to be extremelly transparant to changes - hence all upgrades from sources to cables & stands are clearly rewarded.

When it came to sources, one area that's clearly noticeable will be treble and midband as the C7 excel in these areas. After trying out quite a few sources - my upgrade path ends with 2 DACs - coincidentally, found out later that both have fully discrete analog output stages instead of the usual opamp - neither have the latest digital technology in them either.

I'm not saying digital sources with opamp output will not sound good but you may be better rewarded by looking into older quality hardwares with discrete output instead of latest stuffs with lower end output stage.

[Denmark]

Greetings

I'm new to the community and this is my first post, so forgive me if I am going over old ground.

In my view both the Benchmark and the Lavry Black are outstanding DA converters. I understand they are used extensively by engineers and studios throughout the world. Whilst I own the Lavry, a friend uses both and also has the Lavry AD converters. With quality microphones the recording quality is exceptional.

The Lavry has a slightly darker, richer sound, the benchmark is more pristine. Either would be great, depending on equipment matching and taste.

You could spend a lot of money and not find something as satisfying.

Mark

[DSRANCE]

Can I jump in here please and put an alarming (for an old fogey like me) proposition to you all re sources?

It's been suggested elsewhere that CD players will only be made for a very few years more (due to mechanism availability), as more and more music buyers download and store their sound files on computer....

It's also been suggested that since only a few CD playing mechanisms are now being made and the DACs are very cheap now and have spectacular performance with reserves in processing way beyond the CD "Red Book" standard that it's pointless spending thousands on a CD player with heavy duty casework (where much of the cost goes).

Have any of you out there in the world heard of similar rumours and, if so, how do you feel about this? I currently have many files of rare and unreleased music tracks stored on CDR and DVDR's as well as dotted about several hard drives and still like the "tactile" feeling of holding an LP or disk and physically putting it on or in the player...

P.S. To the gentleman who enquired about the Naim CD player "sound" - it depends on the player! Their best models make you forget the "mechanics" of CD reproduction, whereas their basic models do sound a bit "flat" in perspective and sometimes harsh. The internal "tweakers" can have a field day with older machines, race-tuning them and improving their performance in key areas.

[Kevin M]

Can I jump in here please and put an alarming (for an old fogey like me) proposition to you all re sources? It's been suggested elsewhere that CD players will only be made for a very few years more (due to mechanism availability), as more and more music buyers download and store their sound files on computer....I'm in my forties now but I expect cd players will still be available when I'm gone. CD was launched 25 years ago but the vinyl lp is still with us, and new models of turntables are appearing every other month it seems. I'm not sure that cd will hold the same appeal as vinyl, but I believe there are sufficient numbers out there who have spent 10 or 20 years investing in cd collections and will need players to replace broken or simply outdated models for many years to come.

It's true that downloads are becoming increasingly popular, but this forum is testament to the fact that some people care about 'old school' hi-fidelity where, as you say, the tactile feel of an object and pride of ownership are not secondary considerations. Indeed, the two might be bound together - I simply can't imagine deriving any pleasure from having a colourless, wordless, (and relative to lps, odourless!) set of files stored away on a server sited under the stairs or wherever.

I'm not convinced there's a need to worry about the demise of hard-copy music just yet.

[denjo]

Like you I could not imagine a world without CDPs but having used the Squeezebox for about a year now, my mindset has changed. I still have a DVD player which is used for the occasional movie that I watch. Most times, I listen to music that has been ripped from my CD collection, stored in my pc and streamed via ethernet to feed a Squeezebox and DAC. I have the convenience of playing any song simply by pressing a remote and the music quality is excellent!

[DSRANCE]

What I tried to put across is that CD players as we know them may not be with us much longer and that those which survive, may be of the computer CD drive variety. We're already seeing the death of the CD single and, currently, new "pop" music is being mangled at the mastering stage (hopefully there will be corrective re-masters as the "brick wall" limiting we're seeing on many recordings doesn't conver to MP3 at all well).

There have been so many million CD disks made and sold I'm sure they'll have to be played on something. What I suspect is that the data will be transferred to hard disk (flac files?) and then read into the HiFi from there.

Perhaps there may be a move finally into having the digital feed taken to the (active?) amp system directly. Apparently, the radio channels available via Mac computers is superb and better than the compressed digital converted to analogue for FM transmission that we (in the UK have to put up with).

I'm on very shaky ground away from my "comfort zone" here. I hope the basic information is correct.

[A.S.]

When designing, I listen to only a few seconds from each audio track. I recently ripped my entire CD collection (about 350 discs) and gave almost all away to charity shops. The ability to control a play list from a PC had transformed my ability to access and select test tracks for speaker evaluation from my listening position.

However - the quality entirely depends upon that of the soundcard output connected to the PC. In my case I have to suffer an irritating low-level mains buzz across the speakers because the PC and hifi are both grounded and try as I might, I just can't solve the ground loop problems. This was never an issue with my CD/hifi system.

As an intermediary solution I bought a not very expensive CD multi-disc player which is very handy and I have the feeling that its audio quality is better than my PC/soundcard solution.

[denjo]

Alan
Apart from the sound card, it also depends on whether you are playing the track bit perfect. This will depend on your ripping process. As you say, the quality of the sound card is also very important which I agree. One option is to take the digital information via usb into a decent external DAC (like the Altmann Attraction or Benchmark) and then into your pre or integrated amplifier.

Dsrance: I know what you mean about the future of CDs. I think that with the proliferation pc and other wireless streaming devices, with music stored in the pc or an external hard disk, it is a matter of time when the marketers find a way of selling music without the need o a physical disc which we call the CD. Apple has been very successful with their i-Tunes and other i-stuff. Sad but sure!

I thought I was an old fogey with all these new digital innovations. Surprisingly, it was not such a steep learning curve as I had feared. My entire CD collection (over 1,000 songs), all bit perfect (either wav or flac files) are only the press of a button away!

How do the songs sound? Well, with my Altmann Attraction DAC, I can safely say that one would have to pay at least USD2,000 for a CDP that is in the same league!

[A.S.]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'bit perfect'. Surely all CD ripping must be bit perfect? If it wasn't, then presumably, any bit in the music stream could be imperfect. It could be a low order, low significance bit that would effect some sound right down on the noise floor .... or equally, if the imperfection is random, it could be a significant bit in which case one would hear a loud glitch. I admit that having given away all my CDs I have found that one or two tracks that I've ripped have serious glitches and some minor ones. It pays to check as you rip.

As I understand it, the CD audio error correction system is extremely robust; take a stanley knife to an audio CD and make some deep cuts - it will probably play perfectly well. But when a CD is ripped as digits bypassing the audio error correction system (true or not?) it seems much more vulnerable to surface condition. Would anyone like to prove this with some research as to the error correction system in audio and digital data CDs?

[DSRANCE]

As I understand it, not all CD ripping software is the same... I'm way out of my depth on this one, but apparently EAC software takes chunks of data from the CD and won't stop until a "bit perfect" copy is achieved. Apparently this isn't always done with other software.

Alan, I'm not sure that modern CD players will cope today with deliberately abused CD's as you describe, as many machines made since the mid nineties cut back on interpolation if not error correction too - if a disc is outside the red book spec it probably won't play on a more modern player (I'm happy to be proved wrong though...) although many early nineties players had error correction the equivalent of Shure cartridges in the LP world, able to play almost anything with no stress.

I'm finding these changes both frightening (taking me out of my fifty year old comfort zone {I started VERY young :)}) and also exciting. Apparently a really top notch soundcard (around ?100 - 150) can out perform a sizeable number of CD players and at least one of UK manufacturer will shortly have a preamp (and integrated) with digital as well as analogue inputs able to work with computers as well as "legacy" audio sources.

I hope someone here can do more research on ripping accuracy of different software.

[do_Ob]

Vpi scout, JMW 9 arm, shelter 501, bent audio step up, GSP Gold Era V.

Very musical combo.

Totally agree with the VPi Scout JMW 9 Signature/ Shelter 501 mkII is a very musical combo. The bass has deep impact/slam and those highs are just superb. Very warm sounding and complements the Harbeth sound.

I've set my VTF to 1.8g. I'd like to know what you set your VTF to?

Regards,
Joel

[Naimeo]

As I understand it, not all CD ripping software is the same... I'm way out of my depth on this one, but apparently EAC software takes chunks of data from the CD and won't stop until a "bit perfect" copy is achieved. Apparently this isn't always done with other software.



I find EAC really difficult to understand and all on forum seems to agree that the rest are compromised in sound quality.

I end up using Zero Audio's Ti-48 transport that rips my CD into an internal HD. Sound quality is quite a big jump from running my Pioneer DVD player as a transport + the convenience.

[steve]

As this has become a discussion on ripping and DACS I thought I would provide some background. I use my HL5 with a Squeezebox (which is also my DAC) and have ripped all my collection to my PC (several hundred CDs) and am a software engineer by profession so understand a bit about bits :).

First of all there is the ripping (loading CD to a disk based computer) then the playback.

When you rip a CD you can do it really fast - 10 15 20 times the the speed you use to play the CD but there is a danger that you will lose data or rip erroneous data. This does not happen often - it requires a damaged or dirty CD, but it does occur. For my collection it occurred on about 1 in 20 CD and often cleaning them with an Alcohol swab fixed the problem.

The problem is how can you be sure that the CD you rip is bit perfect.?

EAC (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) originally did this by ripping twice and comparing the results - if the results were identical then the rip was almost certainly OK (the chances of the error being exactly the same are very low). If there were differences EAC would rip the compromised part of the CD several times and guess at the best results .

DbPowerAmp another ripping software then had a good idea. Lets say the user rips a CD and it is perfect (no errors). The checksum, of the results (basically a number calculated from all the bits ripped) for each track could be stored in a central database. Then another user comes along and rips. The rip software checks the checksum against the central database and if the number is the same then that track was ripped OK and there is no need to rip it twice to double check.

Accurate rip is now used by both EAC and DbPowerAmp as well as multiple ripping when needed. Both are fine software that you can use for ripping. There may be other programs that do the same but these two are well known and are market leaders. EAC is free and DbPowerAmp costs after the first month about $35 per year. EAC is harder to use then DbPowerAmp and DbPowerAmp has more online tagging basis available - you pays your money and takes your choice.

Having ripped your CD perfectly you then want to play them back. For that you need a DAC (Digitial analogue converter). You have one on your soundcard so you could use that and run a cable from your soundcard to your preamp. Most people feel that DAC on soundcard are poor and so stream the bits from the PC to an external box that has a DAC. There are boxes that are just DACS, boxes that combine DACS with amplifiers and even boxes that combine DACS with equalizers. Audiophiles often feel they can here differences between DACS and are prepared to spend a lot of cash for a quality DAC. Lesser mortals are less sure they can here differences. You need to listen yourself to decide.

Steve

[tricka]

Hi Steve
as an aside I found tidying up the spdif (rca) out of the SB3 via a pulse transformer gave much better results than buying a more expensive DAC (I use a Lavry DA10). Without wanting to turn this into a modders thread here are the details that my tech passed to me:

"I was able to mount the pulse transformer right next to the S/PDIF RCA socket, shortest route to the output for less interference, best location for soldering work. I did not have to de-solder the L8 and L9 coils, I just bypassed them, so the mod is reversible. I have conformed that the RCA for S/PDIF works fine."

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/tricka22/P1000618_R.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/tricka22/P1000588_R.jpg

This is the pulse transformer you want:http://au.farnell.com/1087809/electrical/product.us0?sku=MURATA-POWER-SOLUTIONS-76601-3C&_requestid=196962

"I have tested the S/PDIF output with four kinds of cables, please see attached pics. The (Arlec) ANTSIG coaxial cable 75 ohm works the best (approx. $10). I found the choice of cable became very critical after the mod, and found the Audioquest Ruby 2 became very unstable (was usable before the mod), but the ANTSIG coaxial is rock solid and perform better after the mod......DIY stuff.....hehe!!!"

In my testing I preferred the SB3 to the spdif out of my Transporter and about the same as TP AES out.

Cheers
Andrew

[agentsmith]

Dumb questions alert.

What is a pulse transformer?

Does it work to improve the TOSLINK output of the SB2? I use the SB2 with a Meridian F80 with TOSLINK input only.

Does it work to improve my Transporter?

[coredump]

Hi guys, contemplating getting a CDP to partner the Lavardin IS and Harbeth Super HL5 combo. any favourite CDP to recommend? Tks

[denjo]

Hi guys, contemplating getting a CDP to partner the Lavardin IS and Harbeth Super HL5 combo. any favourite CDP to recommend? Tks
Hi Coredump

I have a venerable Quad 77 CDP and an Oppo universal player, and have auditioned the Rega Appollo but in the end I went the SB3 route and have not looked back! The wireless network route is the way of the future, IMHO. It is so much more convevenient to rip your entire CD collection in lossless format and stream the data via a wireless router to the SB3. You will need a very good PSU to feed the SB3. I am using the Paul Hynes' PSU which I find excellent in providing clean DC power, its also much better that a sealed lead acid battery.

Best Regards
Dennis

[coredump]

Hi Coredump

I have a venerable Quad 77 CDP and an Oppo universal player, and have auditioned the Rega Appollo but in the end I went the SB3 route and have not looked back! The wireless network route is the way of the future, IMHO. It is so much more convevenient to rip your entire CD collection in lossless format and stream the data via a wireless router to the SB3. You will need a very good PSU to feed the SB3. I am using the Paul Hynes' PSU which I find excellent in providing clean DC power, its also much better that a sealed lead acid battery.

Best Regards
Dennis

very nice option. oh, I've got a wireless network router on standby, simply get a SB3 for myself.. btw, connection was set up between my laptop and a DAC to the amplifier.

seriously, sometimes we do crave for a decent CDP for some serious listening..

something like this:

Burmester classic line 061
Burmester Rondo line 052
http://www.burmester.de/en/produkte/index.php?product=2,6

[do_Ob]

Vpi scout, JMW 9 arm, shelter 501, bent audio step up, GSP Gold Era V.

Very musical combo.

My nephew who is 4 years old accidentally destroyed my Shelter 501mkII. I still love him to death.

Anyways, the good news is I went and bought a Dynavector DV-XX2mkII and this combination also provides excellent synergy. Bass has low end impact and also very tuneful. The 501mkII has warmth in the bass but was lacking the oomph in impact. XX2mkII has lots of impact.

I also noted that the Shelter cartridge did not have pin point focus in its soundstage... in a neutral setup the sound the Shelter gives is similar to one moving to a tube amplifier. It has midrange bloom, easy on the ear and romantic. It is never analytical. XX2mkII has excellent focus and produces a wider soundstage. 501mkII was more in between the speakers when it comes to soundstaging.

XX2mkII is more neutral sounding. I've read a review where they compare this to a Lyra Helikon SL cartridge. I've never auditioned a Lyra Helikon SL but as exchange rates here where I am from is not so great with US to AUD - I bought the XX2mkII cartridge instead.

Finally to me, this combination works! I am hoping my nephew has learnt his lesson and I get to keep this cartridge for some time. Otherwise... I will be broke forever!

Happy listening people!

[codel]

Has somebody auditioned the Icon Audio tube pre-amp LA4 and MB25a mono block tube amps, as these are among the components I intend to use with my new HSL5's?

[coredump]

How do one go about selecting a CD player? TIA..

[trh8654]

VPI Super Scoutmaster w/ JMW 9 signature arm
Super Platter upgrade
Dynavector XX2 MKII cartridge
Simaudio LP5.3 & PSX5.3 phonostage
Esound CDP w/RAM mods
I'm happy!

[EricW]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'bit perfect'. Surely all CD ripping must be bit perfect? If it wasn't, then presumably, any bit in the music stream could be imperfect. It could be a low order, low significance bit that would effect some sound right down on the noise floor .... or equally, if the imperfection is random, it could be a significant bit in which case one would hear a loud glitch. I admit that having given away all my CDs I have found that one or two tracks that I've ripped have serious glitches and some minor ones. It pays to check as you rip.

As I understand it, the CD audio error correction system is extremely robust; take a stanley knife to an audio CD and make some deep cuts - it will probably play perfectly well. But when a CD is ripped as digits bypassing the audio error correction system (true or not?) it seems much more vulnerable to surface condition. Would anyone like to prove this with some research as to the error correction system in audio and digital data CDs?


As this has become a discussion on ripping and DACS I thought I would provide some background. I use my HL5 with a Squeezebox (which is also my DAC) and have ripped all my collection to my PC (several hundred CDs) and am a software engineer by profession so understand a bit about bits :).

First of all there is the ripping (loading CD to a disk based computer) then the playback.

When you rip a CD you can do it really fast - 10 15 20 times the the speed you use to play the CD but there is a danger that you will lose data or rip erroneous data. This does not happen often - it requires a damaged or dirty CD, but it does occur. For my collection it occurred on about 1 in 20 CD and often cleaning them with an Alcohol swab fixed the problem.

The problem is how can you be sure that the CD you rip is bit perfect.?

EAC (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/) originally did this by ripping twice and comparing the results - if the results were identical then the rip was almost certainly OK (the chances of the error being exactly the same are very low). If there were differences EAC would rip the compromised part of the CD several times and guess at the best results .

DbPowerAmp another ripping software then had a good idea. Lets say the user rips a CD and it is perfect (no errors). The checksum, of the results (basically a number calculated from all the bits ripped) for each track could be stored in a central database. Then another user comes along and rips. The rip software checks the checksum against the central database and if the number is the same then that track was ripped OK and there is no need to rip it twice to double check.

Accurate rip is now used by both EAC and DbPowerAmp as well as multiple ripping when needed. Both are fine software that you can use for ripping. There may be other programs that do the same but these two are well known and are market leaders. EAC is free and DbPowerAmp costs after the first month about $35 per year. EAC is harder to use then DbPowerAmp and DbPowerAmp has more online tagging basis available - you pays your money and takes your choice.

Having ripped your CD perfectly you then want to play them back. For that you need a DAC (Digitial analogue converter). You have one on your soundcard so you could use that and run a cable from your soundcard to your preamp. Most people feel that DAC on soundcard are poor and so stream the bits from the PC to an external box that has a DAC. There are boxes that are just DACS, boxes that combine DACS with amplifiers and even boxes that combine DACS with equalizers. Audiophiles often feel they can here differences between DACS and are prepared to spend a lot of cash for a quality DAC. Lesser mortals are less sure they can here differences. You need to listen yourself to decide.

Steve

I have ripped my 600+ CD collection to my Mac using iTunes and ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Compression) and am running it through an mhdt Havana tube DAC. I am more than delighted with both the sonics and the convenience. One benefit of using a Mac as opposed to PC is that everything you need for good sound is built in, and the iTunes software really is very practical and very easy to learn - useful whether you use an iPod or not.

I've also read that one should be sceptical of the "bit perfect" notion - any software used these days should accomplish that as a matter of course: iTunes certainly does.

[steve]

"I've also read that one should be sceptical of the "bit perfect" notion - any software used these days should accomplish that as a matter of course: iTunes certainly does. "

Are you 100% sure of that - EAC certainly does and has been tested by many users. So does DBPowerAMP? ITunes may be or may not - EAC bit perfectness makes it slower then many rivals although accurate rip has solved that problem in many cases.

[EricW]

"I've also read that one should be sceptical of the "bit perfect" notion - any software used these days should accomplish that as a matter of course: iTunes certainly does. "

Are you 100% sure of that - EAC certainly does and has been tested by many users. So does DBPowerAMP? ITunes may be or may not - EAC bit perfectness makes it slower then many rivals although accurate rip has solved that problem in many cases.

100% sure? Not having done the test myself, not really, I suppose. But I'm fairly certain that either Stereophile or Absolute Sound did a product review (I think it might have been Wadia's new iPod dock, but I'm not certain) in which they compared the bitstream from an Apple Lossless file with the bitstream of the CD from which it was ripped, and found the two to be 100% identical. Also, if you google "iTunes bit perfect" you will find a fair amount of discussion on the topic, the consensus of which seems to be that if you turn off the equalizers, sonic "enhancers" and other geegaws, iTunes is bit perfect.

Can't imagine why it would be otherwise, really. I mean, when a computer reads software off a disk, it has to read it bit for bit perfectly, or the software won't function. This is routine. Why would a piece of digitally-encoded music get worse treatment?

[AlanSircom]

100% sure? Not having done the test myself, not really, I suppose. But I'm fairly certain that either Stereophile or Absolute Sound did a product review (I think it might have been Wadia's new iPod dock, but I'm not certain) in which they compared the bitstream from an Apple Lossless file with the bitstream of the CD from which it was ripped, and found the two to be 100% identical. Also, if you google "iTunes bit perfect" you will find a fair amount of discussion on the topic, the consensus of which seems to be that if you turn off the equalizers, sonic "enhancers" and other geegaws, iTunes is bit perfect.

Can't imagine why it would be otherwise, really. I mean, when a computer reads software off a disk, it has to read it bit for bit perfectly, or the software won't function. This is routine. Why would a piece of digitally-encoded music get worse treatment?


Bit perfect playback has nothing to do with the ripping software, or the media player itself. It's about how the operating system interacts with the media player. In Windows XP for example, there's a program called KMixer running in the background that allows the OS to mix system sounds with music files (on a Mac, things are slightly different, because the OSX kernel also includes an Audio MIDI controller that can wreak merry hell if not correctly configured - you become a victim of the Mac's success in the studio). Even when not configured to make loud email ding-dongs when playing music or letting you play along to the keyboard parts, the mixer can still be running in the background and that's potentially undermining your data files. In practice, in both cases, it means KMixer or Audio MIDI can resample 44.1kHz data to 48kHz by default, and the upsampling algorithm isn't particularly good in the Windows version. So you can end up with higher signal-to-noise ratios and data reduction.


Ayre has some useful information on its pages (http://www.ayre.com/usb.htm), to help configure PC and Macs to work with the company's new QB-9 DAC.


I'm of the opinion that this is more folk devil than automatic underminer of sound quality. I've yet to encounter someone listening to a computer source and spotting whether the output is or is not bit-perfect. These are still early days with computer-based audio, though and I reserve the right to be wrong.

[Jeff Day]

I have ripped my 600+ CD collection to my Mac using iTunes and ALAC (Apple Lossless Audio Compression) and am running it through an mhdt Havana tube DAC. I am more than delighted with both the sonics and the convenience. One benefit of using a Mac as opposed to PC is that everything you need for good sound is built in, and the iTunes software really is very practical and very easy to learn - useful whether you use an iPod or not.

I've also read that one should be sceptical of the "bit perfect" notion - any software used these days should accomplish that as a matter of course: iTunes certainly does.
Hi Eric, I too enjoy using my iMac, iTunes, and Havana DAC combo - it provides an exceptionally good musical experience, and it wouldn't surprise me if CD players become extinct when more people become aware of the high performance and flexibility of this approach.

Just a thought: I have been using ALAC when ripping my CDs to my Mac until recently, when I switched over to AIFF. The down side of AIFF is much larger file sizes (more than double), but the up side is that it allows you to replace the stock iTunes audio engine with the higher performance Amarra Computer Music Player offered by Sonic Solutions (the studio people), which offers quite a bit higher performance than the stock iTunes engine, while still retaining the full functionality of iTunes. The Amarra is only available for Macs, but now having heard what it can do I suspect that the approach of replacing the stock iTunes sonic engine with a high performance version will catch on. Just when you thought it was safe in the land of computer based audio, out comes something like Amarra that shows there is more to be extracted from the format. Given that a lot of studios use Sonic Solutions, it's nice to have their software for playback as well, and get the same sort of performance they're getting in the studio. The down side? It's expensive ... but I suspect more companies will enter the fray and bring prices down to earth.

[garmtz]

Hi there Alan, good to have a knowledgeable industry guru in our midst... ;)

Here is another good link for the best possible computer based sound: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

I must admit that I do not agree with the recommendations to set the output of your Mac to 24bit/96kHz for all audio files. In my opinion, upsampling from 16/44.1 to 24/96 has never resulted in more accurate sound. It might be 'nicer', but when you listen closely, timing and imaging are smeared and there is less solidity to the sound. I always aim for native sample rates.

[ryder]

Everybody is going forward with digital audio in iMac and iTunes while I am going backwards by getting a turntable. I got my first turntable, a Rega P5 just recently and have to say vinyl certainly has its own charm. I have not stopped listening to LP's since getting the P5 although I currently have only 4 records in my collection. My CD player has been left untouched for about 1 week now.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1250606368.jpg

I can't believe it music companies stopped producing vinyl when compact disc starts its invasion in the mid 80's. With the current sound I'm getting from my Pat Metheny Group Travels ECM LP, I just cannot bring myself to listen to similar ECM CD's anymore which left me somewhat cold and emotionless. My only gripe is on the rare selection of LP's available on the market and the extra maintenance and care that need to be given to both records and turntable. I will probably get into digital audio by getting a Logitech Transporter or something similar when CD is confirmed a dead format with mainstream recording companies reducing production capacity or ceasing production completely.

[Jeff Day]

Everybody is going forward with digital audio in iMac and iTunes while I am going backwards by getting a turntable. I got my first turntable, a Rega P5 just recently and have to say vinyl certainly has its own charm. I have not stopped listening to LP's since getting the P5 although I currently have only 4 records in my collection. My CD player has been left untouched for about 1 week now.

http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1250606368.jpg

I can't believe it music companies stopped producing vinyl when compact disc starts its invasion in the mid 80's. With the current sound I'm getting from my Pat Metheny Group Travels ECM LP, I just cannot bring myself to listen to similar ECM CD's anymore which left me somewhat cold and emotionless. My only gripe is on the rare selection of LP's available on the market and the extra maintenance and care that need to be given to both records and turntable. I will probably get into digital audio by getting a Logitech Transporter or something similar when CD is confirmed a dead format with mainstream recording companies reducing production capacity or ceasing production completely.

Hey Ryder,

I think most of the folks that I know have also kept their vinyl rigs as well as adopted the iMac/iTunes/USB DAC approach. The better computer + USB DACs front ends out there (Wavelength Cosecant, Mhdt Havana) are performing quite a lot better than the best DACs fed by a transport just a few years ago, and arguably, are on par with (or exceed) vinyl in many ways now. The performance is high enough that even a number of the vinyl-philes I know are considering dumping vinyl rigs as a source completely and investing the $ in more music.

A while back I heard a short demo of tapes from The Tape Project, and they pretty much blew away the best vinyl, like my 45rpm Acoustic Sounds LPs. It may be that the highest performance analog approach may be to go with tapes from The Tape Project, which incidentally has the side benefit of allowing for a studio quality conversion to digital to use as digital source material should one desire to.

Times are changing in audio sources, with the result being there are a number of very good options to choose from that yield very high levels of performance.

Best, Jeff

[ryder]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the response. It is quite fascinating to hear that good computer audio is now on par or better than vinyl since my impression as with the some of the vinyl-philes out there is that digital still lacks something compared to vinyl. From what I know there are quite a number of hardcore vinyl-philes who still stick with their high-end rig, and I guess they must have lived with analog for the rest of their lives having more than 1000 LPs in their collection.

Anyway I presume the best CDPs out there are equivalent in sound quality with computer audio + the best DACs, and it's just a matter of convenience, flexibility and cost-advantage of the latter that have caused most folks to dump CDPs(and vinyl) apart from the close sonic performance between the two. My current turntable blows my aging Krell CDP out of the water with the same music on both CD and LP and as such, my impression alongside a few hardcore vinyl lovers is that the best vinyl rig will still be quite a bit better than the best CDP/computer+DAC. As you have mentioned, times are changing; I and the rest of the old-school vinyl-philes may have not listened to the best digital yet.

I will most likely venture into computer audio sometime next year when more exciting new technology gets introduced into the market alongside with some interesting DACs at more affordable prices. As for now, the turntable(and CDP) is here to stay.

Cheers.

[EricW]

Ryder:

It's been a while since I owned a turntable, but I know what you mean. However, I will say that the mhdt Havana DAC (bought, now that I think of it, on the basis of reading Jeff's review of another mhdt product, the Paradisea +) is really an exceptionally musical piece of gear, for a digital product. To give you an idea, I ran my Mac straight into the USB input on my "second system" amp, the Aura Note (which is a very nice and musical little piece of equipment) and then into the mhdt DAC and the Aux input of the Aura Note, and it was absolutely no contest. The Aura Note, which had sounded fine on its own, was clearly more harsh, edgy and unmusical compared to the mhdt.

In a bout of what might be audiophile craziness, I then added a Bel Canto USB-Link. It did make a further improvement in definition and clarity, but the basic smooth and easy and musical - yet highly revealing - character of the Havana was unchanged. Maybe it's the non-OS architecture, maybe it's the buffer tube, maybe it's good design overall: but it's head and shoulders above most CD players I've heard. It probably sounds closer to your Rega than you might imagine possible.

Eric

[EricW]

Hi Eric, I too enjoy using my iMac, iTunes, and Havana DAC combo - it provides an exceptionally good musical experience, and it wouldn't surprise me if CD players become extinct when more people become aware of the high performance and flexibility of this approach.

Just a thought: I have been using ALAC when ripping my CDs to my Mac until recently, when I switched over to AIFF. The down side of AIFF is much larger file sizes (more than double), but the up side is that it allows you to replace the stock iTunes audio engine with the higher performance Amarra Computer Music Player offered by Sonic Solutions (the studio people), which offers quite a bit higher performance than the stock iTunes engine, while still retaining the full functionality of iTunes. The Amarra is only available for Macs, but now having heard what it can do I suspect that the approach of replacing the stock iTunes sonic engine with a high performance version will catch on. Just when you thought it was safe in the land of computer based audio, out comes something like Amarra that shows there is more to be extracted from the format. Given that a lot of studios use Sonic Solutions, it's nice to have their software for playback as well, and get the same sort of performance they're getting in the studio. The down side? It's expensive ... but I suspect more companies will enter the fray and bring prices down to earth.

Jeff,

Thanks, that's great information - though according to the Sonic Solutions website, there's a new version 1.1 forthcoming that will play ALAC files. Would be fascinating if you could do a review.

Eric

[ryder]

EricW,

Thanks for the comment. Now that has fueled my desire to go with computer audio and possibly getting a MHDT DAC. I have been reading lots of great comments on both Paradisea and Havana DACs from existing owners and guess there might be some truth behind all the rave reviews. Will plan for that sometime in future, probably with another pair of Harbeth speakers with the additional source.

Cheers.

[EricW]

Coming back to this topic after the passage of time ...

The answer to "is iTunes bit-perfect" appears to be "Yes - if the OS settings are correct."

See: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/OS_X_Audio_Playback_-_Setup_Guide

[garmtz]

Coming back to this topic after the passage of time ...

The answer to "is iTunes bit-perfect" appears to be "Yes - if the OS settings are correct."

See: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/OS_X_Audio_Playback_-_Setup_Guide

In the version they investigated, this is true... They however should repeat that for version 8.0/9.0.

[EricW]

In the version they investigated, this is true... They however should repeat that for version 8.0/9.0.

garmtz:

True, but somehow I don't think Apple is the kind of company that would go backwards in an area like this. At least, I hope not. Anyway, I now have the new Snow Leopard OS and iTunes 9, and Benchmark's instructions seem to be applicable to those as well.

[davidlovel]

Because of their increased resolution relative to my previous speakers, as noted in several other postings, the acquisition of a pair Harbeths (Super HL5s) lead me to review the sources I had in my system. I've started a new branch of this thread because in my case this process covered 3 types of source. I'd be interested in views on relative preferences and possible ways ahead.

When I got the HL5s my main source was CD (Musical Fidelity CD Pre as a transport connected to a Bel Canto DAC3). Because I could only accommodate 30% of CD collection in the listening room, I set up an inexpensive wireless system to allow me direct access to the other 70%, which I had stored in Apple Lossless format on a Mac computer fitted with a large RAID disc. Using the Airtunes feature of iTunes on the Mac, I streamed the music to an AppleTV, which is connected by optical SPDIF to the DAC. This has worked faultlessly, with very little intervention necessary from me. The third source is my turntable rig, but this is not currently in the main system, being accessed via the computer.

Considering the low cost (~?200) compared with my CD source, and listening via the transparent HL5s, the sound from the streamed music was very good; on some occasions it was better than that from the CD source. Which way to go - improve the wireless system or the CD system? As it was not obvious to me how to upgrade the wireless source without greatly complicating it I've upgraded the disc playing system. To cut a long story short I replaced the CVD Pre by a PS Audio Perfectwave Transport which gave a massive improvement: CDs now sounded far, far better than the streamed music. In fact I've never heard CDs sound so good!

I chose the PWT because it could also play data DVDs containing high-resolution music files (up to 24bit / 192 kHz). I had already experimented with digitising some of my LPs, creating DVD-Vs and DVD-Audios, and playing them on a DVD player, but I found that the disc navigation was very poor compared with CD. So I have now transferred several albums to data DVDs (at 24 bit / 96 kHz) and these sound very good.

So I think I've sorted 2 of my sources, but I'd be grateful for any advice on how to upgrade the wireless source. Please note I do not want a computer in the listening room, and it is not really practical for me to hardwire the computer to the listening room by ethernet.

[unleash_me]

I've been using PC as a source with Havana for sometime now and can say that this combination is definitely more convenient and sounds even better than my old Marantz 15S1 combo I had earlier.

You can read in detail about the merits and demerits of using computer as a source from some of the best in the business here.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/ca_intro.htm

Cheers.

[tto123]

I've been using PC as a source with Havana for sometime now and can say that this combination is definitely more convenient and sounds even better than my old Marantz 15S1 combo I had earlier.

You can read in detail about the merits and demerits of using computer as a source from some of the best in the business here.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/ca_intro.htm

Cheers.

I bought the Havana mainly out of curiosity (a DA converter with a valve output circuit -- how cool is that :)) and have been listening to it intensively over the weekend. It is nicely built and has worked flawlessly so far. Without any measurable data to back up my claims, I find it sounds natural and plays music pretty well too(?)

Having just read the article linked to unleash_me's post, I started listening to Jorma Kaukonen via Spotify. River of Time is warmly recommended!

In my opinion, if you are into audiophile components, the Havana will give you a greater ROI than high-end cables for example. However, no doubt Harbeths have always and will continue to sound great with any reasonable CD player / computer sound card for the rest of us.

tto123 from Finland, the country of Jormas and Kaukonens, far away from Havana


Edit: No, no, no, here is the article I've read: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/mhdt_havana.htm

[ryder]

tto123, I just read the review of the Havana earlier today before you posted the link here. Seems like many folks have commented on the excellent sonic performance of this tube DAC. Most reviews by Jeff Day have peaked my interest, not only this Havana DAC but the Leben amps as well. Incidentally he is using the Harbeth 40.1 so that is a plus point should folks consider the components he has reviewed.

[davidlovel]

Thanks for the link unleash me. I'd skimmed through this before but not the link it references which considers a lot of the nitty gritty involved:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/ramblings_computer.htm
Some useful advice here for making cost-effective improvements.

I've made some progress in terms of increasing the sound quality from my streamed music source; I've changed the power lead to a Russ Andrews Powercord-8 and the mains distribution block to an Alner-Hamblin MF02. These brought a blacker background, more relaxed music, more ambience and a sweeter top. Still not up to the quality from the PS Audio PWT but closer.

From my limited research I guess I need to do something about the high level of jitter that I'm told the AppleTV generates e.g. look at a re-clocker. The above link records that iTunes is as good as any other means of ripping CDs, as it produces bit-perfect copies. I'd be quite happy to stick with iTunes, with Airtunes for wireless transmission, as it offers all the facilities I need, but for the fact that it cannot handle hi-res digital music.

David

[unleash_me]

Glad I could help David.

Last year I moved from Marantz 15S1 combo and ProAc 140. It was a nice combo and served me well for many years. But my current setup is the best I have had so far and I'm pretty sure I will not be upgrading for a very long time! Tried to be a hifi purist for 2 decades but eventually embraced the PC based solution. Never been happier :-)

My system current system is like this:
FLAC/WAV from PC.Foober.WASAPI through MHDT Havana DAC to McIntosh MA2275 powering a pair of SHL5. Cables and ICs are from Chord Signature. For the DAC the USB and Powercable are from MHDT itself. For the rest of the system also, I'm using the stock cables - still a skeptic over them even after all these years.

Cheers.

[johnfish]

Because of their increased resolution relative to my previous speakers, as noted in several other postings, the acquisition of a pair Harbeths (Super HL5s) lead me to review the sources I had in my system. I've started a new branch of this thread because in my case this process covered 3 types of source. I'd be interested in views on relative preferences and possible ways ahead.

When I got the HL5s my main source was CD (Musical Fidelity CD Pre as a transport connected to a Bel Canto DAC3). Because I could only accommodate 30% of CD collection in the listening room, I set up an inexpensive wireless system to allow me direct access to the other 70%, which I had stored in Apple Lossless format on a Mac computer fitted with a large RAID disc. Using the Airtunes feature of iTunes on the Mac, I streamed the music to an AppleTV, which is connected by optical SPDIF to the DAC. This has worked faultlessly, with very little intervention necessary from me. The third source is my turntable rig, but this is not currently in the main system, being accessed via the computer.

Considering the low cost (~?200) compared with my CD source, and listening via the transparent HL5s, the sound from the streamed music was very good; on some occasions it was better than that from the CD source. Which way to go - improve the wireless system or the CD system? As it was not obvious to me how to upgrade the wireless source without greatly complicating it I've upgraded the disc playing system. To cut a long story short I replaced the CVD Pre by a PS Audio Perfectwave Transport which gave a massive improvement: CDs now sounded far, far better than the streamed music. In fact I've never heard CDs sound so good!

I chose the PWT because it could also play data DVDs containing high-resolution music files (up to 24bit / 192 kHz). I had already experimented with digitising some of my LPs, creating DVD-Vs and DVD-Audios, and playing them on a DVD player, but I found that the disc navigation was very poor compared with CD. So I have now transferred several albums to data DVDs (at 24 bit / 96 kHz) and these sound very good.

So I think I've sorted 2 of my sources, but I'd be grateful for any advice on how to upgrade the wireless source. Please note I do not want a computer in the listening room, and it is not really practical for me to hardwire the computer to the listening room by ethernet.
All u need is an iPhone or iPod touch > download free "remote" thru itune apps. Now u can have your Macbook/ / PC away in other room & yet got yourself full control of your itune collection on handheld device of iPhone/iPod touch stream thru Airport Express wi-fi. Full navigator on itune Playlist /Artist / Song & volume +- . Isn't it amazing :)

[davidlovel]

Thanks for the response Johnfish.

In my post I forget to mention that I also use an iPod touch as a wireless remote to control playback from iTunes running on the Mac - as you say it is amazingly easy to use. I use an Airport Extreme connected to the Mac by ethernet to do the wireless streaming. I noticed that you mention volume +- so I guess that you are using the analogue output from your Airport Express? If so I'd suggest that you could improve the sound considerably by using the digital optical output instead and feed this to a separate DAC.

The point of my posting, and why I sought advice, is that the Airtunes approach (software + Airport Express / Apple TV) only supports music up to CD quality (16 bit / 44.1 kHz). How can I best stream higher resolution music? Since writing previously I have upgraded some power supply elements:

- I changed to a mains distribution block that greatly reduced the level of RFI (radio frequency interference) reaching the system; this gave a large improvement in sound. See:
http://www.alnerhamblin.com/

- I changed the mains lead supplied with the Apple TV to one made by Russ Andrews. This gave a further, but smaller, improvement. See:
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1541&customer_id=PAA1474014810620WTXBKXMRTGNUIFEV

- I changed the power supply in my Bel Canto DAC3 to a virtual battery supply (VBS1). This wrought an astonishing improvement - the system now sounds more 'analogue' than my turntable, but with all the detail and accuracy I associate with digital. See:
http://www.stereotimes.com/MW2009b.shtml

Happy listening

David

[Labarum]

I stopped using my Quad 77 Player a few years ago. A standard Audigy soundcard on a PC did a better job, such is the pace of technology.

My CDs are ripped to FLAC files and are stored on the hard rive of my laptop (and another PC)

I have a Squeezebox under the TV which reads the FLAC music library by WiFi connection and drives a Beresford Caiman DAC (c£200) Consider one before spending more.

The DAC in the Squeezebox is good but not great, but with and external DAC the sky is the limit.

The Squeezebox also doubles as a radio tuner pulling in high quality radio stations from around the word. It beats my Quad 77 tuner. Do remember that for years the BBC has sent broadcast material to the transmitters over a 14bit digital network - that's not quite as good as CD quality.

I can also link my laptop directly to the Caiman DAC by a USB cable and send a bitperfect stream to the DAC. I don't, because the Squeezbox does it for me wirelessly.

There are many tips on computer audio here

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/

I wont ever be using a CD player again.

[AdamW]

Currently I have a very fine Sugden CDMaster CD player and Kenwood KT-5020L tuner. While the tuner will stay here for a long time (FM is the wife domain, I rarely listen to the radio..), the Sugden is already being packed and will be replaced with the Naim CD5X next week.. I expect a small, but exciting improvement in the sound quality, esp. after adding the TeddyCap to the Naim. In the future I plan to add the Naim DAC to the CD, which will be also used for a file/stream player.

The only thing that I'm still think about is about going vinyl - I'd love to have a fine TT, but since right now I have zero vinyls, I doubt if there is a point in investing the money in the TT, arm, cartridge, phonostage, etc.

[AdamW]

The Naim CD5X is doing a great job and a new toy is coming - a beautiful LP12 is on the way :-) My setup is almost completed..