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View Full Version : Cables for your Harbeths (general, not specific Harbeth models)



A.S.
07-02-2006, 06:11 PM
This thread concerns finding cable solutions.

John Parkyn
07-02-2006, 10:37 PM
I hear that some people claim that expensive cables and interconnects make a huge difference to the resulting sound. Some of these people pay dozens, even hundreds of pounds (pick your currency) per metre to squeeze better sound out of their system.

Could they be wasting their money? After all, many claim that basic econo cable/interconnects or a step or two up is good enough.

What's the story? Does more money make a difference?

What cables and interconects do you use / recommend?

sevodude
08-02-2006, 04:33 AM
I feel that interconnects definitely do make a difference. I can't explain it but the difference between very good and ordinary cables can be night and day. In fact, so does power cables, power supply etc.
The rest of the system must be up to scratch though... if its revealing enough, then you can really hear alot of difference as the cables then become the limiting factor.
I was using an old integrated amp and I thought that certain cables sounded bright, some muffled etc, but once I upgraded the amp and pre etc, then I really could tell what the differences were, and what was previous ok now sounded congested etc etc because the quality of all the other components "revealed " the differences. In this respect, Harbeth speakers goes a long way in being revealing, being able to keep up with ya upgrades. And the differences can sometimes be almost greater than single component change.
Its convenient and economical to deny the differences, but they exist. But how much you need to pay for that difference is another question. Alot of cables, esp famous ones, are way way overpriced with tremendous profit margins.

kevint
05-03-2006, 05:35 AM
I finally followed AS’s suggestion to get some ‘humble’ 79 strands speaker cable, it is the cable every Harbeth owner should try! After installing the cable, everything suddenly sounds so right and nature. I have tried many cables (different size of solid-core and strands design) throughout the last two years for my M40, they all make substantial difference, just none of them convinced me I am hearing Harbeth house sound.

The reason I didn’t use 79 strands because there are too many fancy cables and too little humble cable this day. 79 strands is a magic number, there are many simple cables specifying 2mm or 4mm with several hundred strand counts, but there is no mentioning 79 strands. After doing some research in the net, I found that 79 strands is UK standard for 79/0.2mm to make up a 2.5mm cable. I limited the search to UK made cable and finally found QED still manufacture classic figure-8 type 79 strands. It is ridicules cheap and thin cable, also the best cable for M40 I have ever tried.

p.s. QED 79 looks like the white cable in the switch-box photo displayed in Harbeth site.

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/designersnotebook/personal_notes/images/crossover-switcher2c.jpg

Hu
05-03-2006, 11:56 AM
Where could I find QED 79? Thanks!

Soundbyte
02-04-2006, 04:00 PM
Hi all,
Has anyone tried Kimber Kable 8TC for their Harbeth C7ES2 or any other Harbeth?

Cheers.

Thanos
03-04-2006, 08:34 AM
Hi there,

I use them with SHL5s and with a McIntosh integrated. All interconnects are also Kimbers. I compared them with Nordost Red Dawn and Monsters of same price range, both bi-wire and mono-wire modes. 8TC in mono-wire looks the best to me, as being less expensive, easier to use and to terminate with standard WBT bananas. No essential differences from bi-wire to mono-wire found as to sound quality.
Cheers,
Thanos

Soundbyte
09-04-2006, 04:11 PM
Hi Thanos,
Thanks for repying are you saying that it is no difference from Nordost Red Dawn and Monsters Cable at the same price range? Is the treble note clear? How is bass note for the Kimber 8TC? Are you still using them?

Thanks for your help.

Cheers.



Hi there,

I use them with SHL5s and with a McIntosh integrated. All interconnects are also Kimbers. I compared them with Nordost Red Dawn and Monsters of same price range, both bi-wire and mono-wire modes. 8TC in mono-wire looks the best to me, as being less expensive, easier to use and to terminate with standard WBT bananas. No essential differences from bi-wire to mono-wire found as to sound quality.
Cheers,
Thanos

Frihed89
09-04-2006, 11:23 PM
I have also had good success with Kimber copper ICs and speaker cables between all components. Then I tried Audio Note Lexus ICs and speaker cables and got warmth + more detail and less "air". I bought them. Then I auditioned Audience AU 24 equipment. Out of this world, but I can't afford them. As good as the Lexus' are , the AU's are remarkable: just the right combination of warmth and detail.

If you try the AUs or even the Lexus', you may forget any plans you ever had to get silver cables.

David Schalkwyk
10-04-2006, 10:39 AM
I'm using 10mm welding cables with very good results. Lots of copper. About $2 a metre at any welding supplier.

David

Frihed89
10-04-2006, 05:05 PM
I have never heard welding cable, but it is genuinely hard for me to believe that you would not hear a substantial improvement with AN Lexus or Audience AU 24. However, you may not be willing to pay that much more for this improvement, which I can understand.

But one of us is missing something - sound or money!

Soundbyte
11-04-2006, 02:40 PM
Currently, I am using Audience AU24 interconnects with Hisago 7N Pure copper speaker cable... Just wanting to try some other cable to achieve better bass note.

Thanks.


I have also had good success with Kimber copper ICs and speaker cables between all components. Then I tried Audio Note Lexus ICs and speaker cables and got warmth + more detail and less "air". I bought them. Then I auditioned Audience AU 24 equipment. Out of this world, but I can't afford them. As good as the Lexus' are , the AU's are remarkable: just the right combination of warmth and detail.

If you try the AUs or even the Lexus', you may forget any plans you ever had to get silver cables.

Frihed89
11-04-2006, 05:02 PM
And are you sure it is due to the cables? It may be due to almost anything else in your system, even your speakers. So make sure these notes you don't like are within the freq. response of your speakers.

David Schalkwyk
12-04-2006, 02:45 PM
I have never heard welding cable, but it is genuinely hard for me to believe that you would not hear a substantial improvement with AN Lexus or Audience AU 24. However, you may not be willing to pay that much more for this improvement, which I can understand.

But one of us is missing something - sound or money!

Sure. I don't doubt that I may be missing something. On the other hand I may not. The problem is that I have no way of knowing without spending a great deal of money. No-one has been able to explain to me why expensive cables should make a difference, whereas I can understand why a Harbeth loudspeaker should be better than my previous ones. So I prefer to save the little money I have to spend on this hobby (or obsession) on replacing my HP3s with Compact7s-- someday...

If you have never heard welding cable you have a perfect opportunity to test your belief in its inferiority by trying some. It'll only cost you about 20 euros for the experiment. You may like it.

Enjoy the music.

David

Frihed89
12-04-2006, 04:40 PM
Hi David,

It is hard to argue with the logic. Where did you get the Harbeths in Cape Town? I've never even looked for a high-end audio store, there.

Our last trip early in March was nice, but we only got into Cape Town on the last day to enjoy the sun on Clifton Beach. It was deserted and the restauant we like was closed. I guess the tourist season was over. Things continue to boom in Stellenbosch and since table grape prices are in the toilet I foresee more farms turning into housing developments.

David Schalkwyk
14-04-2006, 12:10 AM
I didn't get the Harbeths in Cape Town. I ordered them from Alan, unheard and unseen (!) I am very, very pleased with them. There are high-end shops in Cape Town, but they're very much for audiophiles... I doubt many people would appreciate Harbeths.

As for Stellenbosch, I went to university there. I fear you're right about the housing developments, alas. Contact me on your next visit if you like. I'm on the University of Cape Town website.

Greetings

David

Soundbyte
27-04-2006, 03:18 AM
Hi Frihed89,
You're right... it was my amp. I just change to Lavardin IS Ref and now I am enjoying the fuller tight bass note!

Enjoy the music...


And are you sure it is due to the cables? It may be due to almost anything else in your system, even your speakers. So make sure these notes you don't like are within the freq. response of your speakers.

wlmdx
04-05-2006, 12:05 AM
Hi,
Anyone replace their brass jumpers that came with the Harbeth? What do you replace with?

Hu
04-05-2006, 04:28 PM
I replaced them with Audio Note Lexus jumpers, sounded bright for me, so took them off, still using brass jumpers.

wlmdx
04-05-2006, 07:54 PM
I tried the following (diy):
1) twisted copper wire(2-4 single 24ga from cat5 cable)====bright
2) twisted silver plated wire(2-4 single 26ga )======bright
3) twisted pure silver wire(2x 28ga )=======better
4) single 28ga pure silver wire=======a lot better,but still bright on some of my recordings.

I am still trying to get the best possible combination.

Thanos
05-05-2006, 02:33 PM
I tried the following (diy):
1) twisted copper wire(2-4 single 24ga from cat5 cable)====bright
2) twisted silver plated wire(2-4 single 26ga )======bright
3) twisted pure silver wire(2x 28ga )=======better
4) single 28ga pure silver wire=======a lot better,but still bright on some of my recordings.

I am still trying to get the best possible combination.

Hi Friends, some help please!

Ok with provided jumpers, but anyone to comment on bi-wiring, I mean to have any experience with it?
I use Kimbers 8TC (two pairs of 3m each), having removed jumpers but I don't have -at my age- that good an ear to get the difference from changing to mono-wire set of 8TC (length of 2m. each) that I have as spares, and tried them with jumpers on, of course.
Is there any kind of listening difference or crossover behaviour between this two modes? Any comment/experience very helpful
Thanks,
Thanos

Thanos
05-05-2006, 03:32 PM
Hi Thanos,
Thanks for repying are you saying that it is no difference from Nordost Red Dawn and Monsters Cable at the same price range? Is the treble note clear? How is bass note for the Kimber 8TC? Are you still using them?

Thanks for your help.

Cheers.

Hi Soundbyte, sorry for delay in reply.
The Red dawns came a little "thin" in bass Vs the 8TCs. Still came a bit more coherent in mono-wire Vs Kimbers bi-wired as to the overall presence and especially in mids & highs. With 8TC mono-wired, both sounded very close. But to terminate/ change lengths to Nordosts is an even worse nightmare than to do the same with Kimbers (also a pain in the ass). The Monsters (M1 -I don't have them anymore in main system-see below), were good- no weaknesses overall- but when I critically listened to 8TC, I found a very big soundstage with bass to die for, and without cloud covering the mids-highs. That's why I use it. I estimate that single-wire with WBT careful termination (bananas on both sides), no more than about 2m. each side, will give you standard fine results. Don't forget that 8TCs are excellent values for money and fine allrounders -especially if you change your amps- sources, whenever. Of course, If you want to pay less, go for a Monster low price M series speaker cable and combine with Interlink 400 inteconnects. You won't regret... I use this combo to my 2nd system -vacation house- and is really good. Changed 3 different systems with various componenets, the Monsters were always very good with all. Currently working with Luxman 2 X 75wrms transistor integrated, Philips CD 750, TEAC cassette deck, Sony tuner, Technics 1200 turntable and B&W P6 speakers. Some say that this humble system sometimes makes my main expensive system (Harbeths+McIntosh+Meridian+Nakamichi+Techniks gold 1200/Shure v-15) to win ok, but with sweat and tears...
Hope I gave a little help,
Regards,
Thanos

wlmdx
07-05-2006, 12:44 AM
I never try bi-wiring with the Compact 7 but I did tried with my previous speakers that I sold(polk lsi15) before the Compact 7. I liked it better(sound smoother) without bi-wiring that's why I hesitate to try it on my Harbeth.

ACF
08-07-2006, 01:59 PM
Hi,
Anyone replace their brass jumpers that came with the Harbeth? What do you replace with?

Replaced the brass jumpers in the SHL5's with KIMBER Select KS-9033 Jumper cable and am using Kimber Monocle XL speaker cable with spades. Everything sounds just great.

J.A. Boonstra
09-07-2006, 03:28 PM
I use Monster Cable MCX-2S speaker cable. I have removed the brass plates from the binding posts of my Harbeth Super HL5, cut of a little piece of my speaker cables, fitted gold spades (Monster Cable Quick Lock) and connected these jumpers to the binding posts. The main speaker lead is fitted with banana-plugs (Monster Cable Quick Lock) and is connected to the lower of the two binding posts (as is recommended in the Harbeth manual).

The improvement in sound is obvious, although not earth-shaking. The gain is in the details, the quieter background and (at low listening levels) the richer sound . It is important to keep the "jumpers"as short as possible.

danrubin
09-07-2006, 06:22 PM
As we know, Alan Shaw strongly disagrees with any claim that the brass jumpers can be improved upon.

Thanos
10-07-2006, 03:17 PM
As we all know, the center of the problem is if we really get any improvement by experimenting wtith such short lengths and materials. I believe that there is a difference on bi-wiring vs mono-wiring. Why? Because ther must be different crossover behaviour & function. The jumpers must be of lesser significance to this...
I hope Alan will comment on this,by explaining the role of "this ot that way" or with "such or such" jumpers. Really, any audible change should be recognizable instead of imaginative.
Regards,
Thanos

Ted Rook
15-07-2006, 11:53 PM
This is a reply to the earlier post from wlmdx about experimenting with various wires. You give the wire gauge numbers and I am wondering if there has been a mistake. Are you describing interconnect wiring (line level) or loudspeaker wiring (power level)? The gauges numbers you quote, 24 and 28 gauge are suitable for use at line level between equipment but not suitable as loudspeaker wire. You need minimum 14 gauge for speaker wire, preferably 12 or 10 gauge for speaker connections. The difference will be most apparent at low frequencies due to the high resistance of long pieces of thin wire the amplifier will no longer have normal control of the woofer that takes place with normal low resistance (thick gauge) speaker cables.

Ted Rook M30s USA

J.A. Boonstra
02-08-2006, 02:33 PM
Really, any audible change should be recognizable instead of imaginative.


I don't believe in snake oil, dogmas and fundamentalism.
I don't use scientific measuring equipment.
I just experiment and follow my ears. Because my ears are my only measuring equipment. I decide that something works for me (or not) by listening and not based on theory, magazines, commercials or whatever.
I read hifi-magazines, because they keep me informed about the latest news in the business, but I never buy anything without hearing it first.

The difference between brass plates (or brass covered tin plates) and jumpers that are made of real loudspeaker cable, was demonstrated to me by a friend (on loudspeakers from a different brand).
So I went home and started my own little experiment.

1) First I listened to my SHL5's with the standard plates.
2) Then I replaced the plates with a set of (low cost) jumpers that I borrowed from a local HiFi-dealer. I heard almost no difference.
3) Then I replaced the plates with the jumpers, that I made from my own speaker cables. The difference was not enormous, but certainly worth the effort.
4) So after a few more tests, including blind tests (with help from my friend), I decided that the combination of a speaker cable and jumpers that are made from the same speaker cable gives the best result for me.

I hear an inprovement in the sound quality and I like it. I only posted it as information for other members. Maybe someone can use it, maybe someone thinks it is complete nonsens. I don't mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. But don't lower yourself to the level of innuendo by writing that my conclusion may have been imaginative. It is NOT.

I quote the Harbeth manual on cables: "... so we'll leave that for you to explore ...".

On the subject of wiring methods, the Harbeth manual says that "We recommend the standard 'single-wiring' connection method as this is the simplest, safest and quickest method of connecting your amplifier ...".

So, although Harbeth prefers single-wiring, there is a bi-wiring terminal on the backside of the speakers. Why do you think that is? Because some people like bi-wiring or even bi-amping and others don't.
Harbeth provides speakers with terminals that allow different connection methods.
Harbeth may have a certain opinion on connection methods, but doesn't impose it upon the customers. Otherwise there would not have been a bi-wiring terminal.

You can experiment and decide for yourself, what configuration you like the best. This also implies, that other people can come to different conclusions. So be it. It's only human.

Let's use this Harbeth user Group to exchange information and experiences and let's not abuse it to judge each other.

A.S.
02-08-2006, 07:28 PM
I think this amplifies my personal feelings of "live and let live" and I endorse the sentiment.

Where I start to have doubts is where the consumer is persuaded that in exchange for significant sums of money, huge sonic improvements can be achieved. But when one is playing for beer-money (as illustrated here) what have you to loose - and you may well gain.

As for biwire or not biwire terminals, my feeling is that that argument has probably run its course over the past nearly 20 years and arrived at exactly 50% for and 50% against the idea. Future Harbeths will (probably) revert to a single pair, reducing assembly time, cost and contact resistance.

Bruce
06-08-2006, 07:18 PM
Future Harbeths will (probably) revert to a single pair, reducing assembly time, cost and contact resistance.

Alan, I know you will probably recommend against the consumer opening up his speakers but you were the one that brought up contact resistance. So when not bi-wiring, couldn't we eliminate the whole jumper issue by moving the internal crossover wires from the top terminals to the lower terminals and then use only the lower terminals without the jumpers?

holden
26-09-2006, 01:05 PM
I think both speaker cable and interconnect cable definitely "alter" the sound of your system, but often not in a positive way. I've tried a number of different stuff and it is always better to buy the cable and interconnects from the same company. What is needed is something that doesn't exaggerate one aspect of the sound over another and basically lets the amp control the speakers.
There's nowt wrong with QED 79 strand. It sounds together.
I am using some nordost speaker cable, not so expensive - 11 quid a metre and that's the best i've found at an affordable price. Unfortunately it's not really advertised much and i can't remember the name, and everything else nordost is expensive. It's bi-wire cable and gives a balanced, detailed sound. Otherwise i'd run scared and revert to 79 strand (i kept 6 metres on standby) because a lot of the budget stuff just exaggerates one aspect of the sound and sacrifices other aspects. I guess if you go expensive an audition at home is in order, or you really do risk wasting your cash. A few crates of beer would be a more worthwhile investment unless you can take the cables home and try them first.
Happy listening.

Naimeo
02-01-2007, 12:39 PM
I have also had good success with Kimber copper ICs and speaker cables between all components. Then I tried Audio Note Lexus ICs and speaker cables and got warmth + more detail and less "air". I bought them. Then I auditioned Audience AU 24 equipment. Out of this world, but I can't afford them. As good as the Lexus' are , the AU's are remarkable: just the right combination of warmth and detail.

If you try the AUs or even the Lexus', you may forget any plans you ever had to get silver cables.

Hello Frihed89, Just tried the Audio Note AN-L in my C&ES3 system with impreesive result. On reading your feedback on the Lexus, I'm tempted to get the Lexus instead. have you auditioned the AN-L against the Lexus? Lexus cost a lot more, but is the difference substantial?

Hu
02-01-2007, 01:26 PM
Now I am using Lexus speaker cables and IC with M30, happy with them, but never tried LA against Lexus.

Naimeo
03-01-2007, 04:14 AM
Now I am using Lexus speaker cables and IC with M30, happy with them, but never tried LA against Lexus.

Hello Hu,

Thanks for your response.

I wasn't expecting the obvious positive effect of the AN-L speaker cable in my system. I'm using quite generic OFC cables which sounded just fine before the AN-L brought in a wealth of inner details, slightly improved bass impact and depth - in a natural & coherent manner.

I'm curious what the higher end Lexus can do but the price for a 2.5m pair is US$590 here - drastically more than the AL-N

Are the Audio Note & Harbeth popularly matched with each other?

Hu
05-01-2007, 01:32 PM
Hello Hu,


Are the Audio Note & Harbeth popularly matched with each other?

Hello Naimeo,

Sorry, I really do not know if the AN and Harbeth are popular match. Just make my system sounds more vivid, prettier treble and more musical than Analysis Oval 9 with my system. I have never tried AN-L.

Hu

Hu
05-01-2007, 01:44 PM
I have also had good success with Kimber copper ICs and speaker cables between all components. Then I tried Audio Note Lexus ICs and speaker cables and got warmth + more detail and less "air". I bought them. Then I auditioned Audience AU 24 equipment. Out of this world, but I can't afford them. As good as the Lexus' are , the AU's are remarkable: just the right combination of warmth and detail.

If you try the AUs or even the Lexus', you may forget any plans you ever had to get silver cables.

John McDonald from Audience said that anyone who can not afford the Au24 should definately try the Audience Maestro or Conductor cables. They are balanced the same as Au24; just not quite as resolute. They are great.

Hu

Naimeo
27-02-2007, 07:52 AM
Hello Naimeo,

Sorry, I really do not know if the AN and Harbeth are popular match. Just make my system sounds more vivid, prettier treble and more musical than Analysis Oval 9 with my system. I have never tried AN-L.

Hu

I've just bought a set of Lexus speaker cables. Neutal, natural & open sound. Looking for interconnect now and auitioning a set of Goertz Silver Micro Purl - tonally quite balanced but just a tad bright with great imaging, soundstaging and microdynamics.

sunshine
07-08-2007, 02:09 PM
Hi,

Any Kondo silver speaker cable user here?
It seems like most Harbeth users are using copper speaker cable. Silver speaker cable users, care to contribute?

I'd listened to a setup, using full Kondo cables, smooth, sweet, not bright at all and emotions. But not using Harbeth speakers.

Later..

Greg
21-08-2007, 03:06 AM
I settled on Cardas Twinlink speaker cable (with integral Cardas jumpers) and a Cardas Microtwin interconnect after I migrated from Naim to a Leben tubed integrated amplifier.

With Naim you inevitably use their cabling (though it isn't entirely necessary). So I had to start over with cabling. I demo'd a variety of relatively inexpensive cables before settling on Cardas. There's something to be said for the litz construction that Cardas uses, I must conclude.

Integral jumpers are where you solder / crimp the jumpers directly into the spade or banana plug at the speaker end of the speaker cable. It's an old Naim-advocated trick and is probably the best method for jumping bi-wire terminals.

Of the several speakers I've owned over the years, aftermarket jumpers or bi-wiring (internal or external) has ALWAYS been significantly better than the stock brass jumper plates to my ears -- regardless of whether bi-wiring is an improvement in itself with a given pair of speakers.

jaybar
21-08-2007, 04:30 AM
Hi Greg

I am a BIG Cardas fan. I use GR Interconnects, NR speaker cable and Golden power cords with my Monitor 30's. I also use Microtwin IC's with my tape deck to good effect. Twinlink speaker cable did not work well in my room. Too much mid bass with Twinlink speaker cable. Because of the concrete construction of my room, it tends to hold on to mid bass, so it was not a good fit. This was before I had Harbeth speakers. I wonder how the Twinlink would work with Harbeth?

Jay

T.W.
27-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Here is a link to an excellent doc about the technologie behind speaker cables.

http://www.qed.co.uk/downloads/qed/brochures/genreprt.pdf

Very helpful to understand what's going on ...

Thomas

DSRANCE
05-12-2007, 06:32 PM
I worry that all these fancy cables mentioned, especially the capacitive Kimber designs, will alter the tonal balance of the speakers quite noticably (and measurably)...

Had AS used a fancy cable "with character" in the speakers' development, then your findings in this thread may have been completely different.

If 79 strand isn't available outside of the UK, then how about 6A stranded mains cable, which many professionals use (unless I am mistaken). I used it for a while in 4 - 5m runs and had no problem at all. The only thing against it may be the quality/purity of the copper (I used a BICC variant) as suppliers like QED may specify a better quality copper (Cable Talk in the UK did as I recall).

Just an opinion...

I'd also say that my HL5's were pretty well immune to the Bi-Wire fad and didn't sound much, if any different to me when used this way. (I always told people that 50% of the "improvement" was increased dealer profit in the extra cable sold, 30% the amp seeing a different load and 20% any audible results from the previous 30%.....)

holden
22-12-2007, 10:56 AM
I think i have previously posted about cables, but would like to change my stance. I recently took all the (moderately) expensive cables out of my system and put basic interconnects, mains cables in. I then sat down and listened to several recordings i know very well. I know the parts of each recording which impress me, and i know when i'm listening to a sound i enjoy. I have to say, there was no difference at all between a 200 quid mains lead and a basic one, a 100 quid interconnect and a 5 quid one. I think it is all the placebo effect, and am willing to admit that i have been a victim. I left the cables in place and found that the musical satisfaction i get from listening to my Harbeths is exactly as it was before. Spend your money on components, reposition your speakers, improve your acoustics! I am still listening happily without expensive cables and won't be going back. My ears haven't changed, but my grip on audible reality has.

Ned Mast
22-12-2007, 02:04 PM
How refreshing to read your post, Holden! The placebo effect is far better understood in the medical/scientific fields than it is in audio. I think your observatons are right on the mark. Thanks for expressing them.

Ned

holden
22-12-2007, 03:16 PM
So here's my recommendation - 79 strand speaker cable, or 78 strand if you can't get it, a glass of 30 year old malt, Harbeth speakers, Leben 12 watt vacuum tube amp designed by the genius of Mr. Taku Hyodo, whatever cd player you like and a reality pill. Oh, and Kenny Burrell - midnight blue.

Steer clear of the cable wizards. Happy New Year.

Ned Mast
23-12-2007, 02:43 AM
Hi Holden,

I'll go along with 6 of your 7 recommendations:

1. 79 Strand speaker cable: probably similar to my stranded 14 gauge copper wire.
2. 30 year old malt: a good choice.
3. Harbeth speakers: absolutely.
4. Leben 12 watt tube amp: I'll stick with my 300 watt Sunfire (and no, I don't listen at high volumes. Tubes put out heat. The Sunfire runs cool and draws 40 watts at idle).
5. any cd player: ok, if it has a good DAC (I run my old Marantz into a Lavry DA10).
6. Kenny Burrell: another good choice.

And, yes, definitely steer clear of cable wizards.

Ned

Gan CK
23-12-2007, 03:41 AM
So here's my recommendation - 79 strand speaker cable, or 78 strand if you can't get it, a glass of 30 year old malt, Harbeth speakers, Leben 12 watt vacuum tube amp designed by the genius of Mr. Taku Hyodo, whatever cd player you like and a reality pill. Oh, and Kenny Burrell - midnight blue. Steer clear of the cable wizards. Haha I like this recommendation, esp the reality pill. It's a viable way of bringing oneself closer to the music.

holden
23-12-2007, 04:59 PM
Hi Ned,

I have to say, i haven't tried the 78 strand, though given my previous findings, i'm sure it competes with the 79. As for the Leben recommendation, i confess i shouldn't really be posting about amps as it is a horses for courses thing. I would like to try and break down carefully the ingredients of the reality pill though, as i believe any pill should be explained, so other users may consider the potential effects.

The reality pill contains antidotes/benefits for the following conditions:

1. Removal of wishful thinking that cable will be a temporarily good substitute for that next component you really want to buy, and you know will improve your system. The component will improve it, but the intermediary cable purchase won't.
2. Removal of the belief that having that cable will provide your system with an edge over your friend, who has basically the same system.
3. An opportunity to recoup the money from your previously wasteful cable adventures, and to buy your wife a nice present, and regain some credibility in her eyes, thus enhancing your marriage/relationship. Unfortunately this involves someeone else buying the cable, but hey.......
4. Removal of the belief that Kenny Burrell needs expensive cable to be Kenny Burrell and that your Harbeths can't deliver Kenny Burrell without it. Same for all other artists.
5. It can be taken with or without the 30 year old malt, with equally effective results, depending on your disposition to 30 year old malt.
6. A feeling of relief will be experienced, primarily associated with the fact that that you are no longer a believer of the unscientifically proven cable claims, and that your Harbeths sing regardless.
Stanley Turrentine is up next.......

Please feel free to bash me for these opinions about cable, but they are based on my own tests, subjective of course.

pranderos
23-12-2007, 07:16 PM
I
As for biwire or not biwire terminals, my feeling is that that argument has probably run its course over the past nearly 20 years and arrived at exactly 50% for and 50% against the idea. Future Harbeths will (probably) revert to a single pair, reducing assembly time, cost and contact resistance.

Alan;
Having just heard and fallen in love with your HL P3ES speakers, I hope to purchase them in short order. But, I'd just as soon get them with the single pair of terminals, if you are making that production change anytime soon. Any idea when that may happen?
Best regards,
-paul-

Naimeo
25-12-2007, 08:19 AM
Hi,

Any Kondo silver speaker cable user here?
It seems like most Harbeth users are using copper speaker cable. Silver speaker cable users, care to contribute?

I'd listened to a setup, using full Kondo cables, smooth, sweet, not bright at all and emotions. But not using Harbeth speakers.

Later..

I auditioned AnalysisPlus' Big Silver and found it very smooth and "buttery" on my C7 and tonally well balanced. Ironical for a silver cable, it's rolled off on top, so not much "air".

Naimeo
25-12-2007, 08:41 AM
How refreshing to read your post, Holden! The placebo effect is far better understood in the medical/scientific fields than it is in audio. I think your observatons are right on the mark. Thanks for expressing them.

Ned

Sounds like dwelling in exotic cables is frown upon here. I just migrated from a Naim system to a new system a little over a year ago and have tried quite a handful of cables, the difference is there but the only questions are if the difference is improvement and if the price justifies.

My Harbeth dealer recommends me not to waste money on cables and sold me some Rega Quattro. Coming from over a decade of Naim ownership, I can easily accept his wisdom - explored everything else except the Quatrro & C7 end of the system - until a friend showed up with bunch of Audio Note AN-L and slaughtered the sacred cow!

The C7ES3 sounds great with the Quattro, but the AN-L just adds another level of details, refinement and fluidity to the music. Unfortunately this is just the start and problem is where does it end with this cable exploration...

Naimeo
25-12-2007, 08:50 AM
Just a give an alternative to Holden's take here. I just migrated from a Naim system to a little over a year ago and have tried quite a handful of cables, the difference is there but the only questions are if the differences is improvement and if the price justifies.

My Harbeth dealer recommends me not to waste money on cables and sold me some Rega Quattro. Coming from over a decade of Naim ownership, I can easily accept his wisdom - explored everything else except the Quatrro & C7 end of the system - until a friend showed up with bunch of Audio Note AN-L and slaughtered the sacred cow!

The C7ES3 sounds great with the Quattro, but the AN-L just adds another level of details, refinement and fluidity to the music. Unfortunately this is just the start and problem is where does it end with this cable exploration...

DSRANCE
26-12-2007, 02:47 PM
I'd suspect the AN-L is exaggerating some things over others, knowing the range a little as I do. Their cable almost certainly will have been designed with "character" built in to its performance - sorry! Remember, fine details don't care what bit of wire they're travelling along, as long as the wire has the correct specification balance for the job.

I still seriously suggest the humble stuff available from the likes of Maplin in the UK, The ?3 per metre version of good old QED 79 strand or, at a pinch, the Naim A5 if it's for long runs of, say 10m each. I don't know the current Rega cable, but I don't expect it to sound bad under any conditions, as Rega don't believe in fancy wires either...

Remember, it's a bit like impedance mismatching from source output to amp input that brings about so many interconnect "differences" and I suspect the same thing happens with amp output to loudspeaker inputs too. Factor in the horrendous loads presented by some speaker designs and I'm not at all surprised at the prevalence of "special" speaker cables that only really work in certain combinations...

A.S.
27-12-2007, 10:12 AM
...Factor in the horrendous loads presented by some speaker designs and I'm not at all surprised at the prevalence of "special" speaker cables that only really work in certain combinations...I think David makes a very important point here. Setting aside the argument of whether cables in general do or don't have a sonic signature, it is conceivable that the more reactive (or erratic) the speaker load presented to the amplifier the more the signature could, conceivably, be audible.

In the case of Harbeth speakers, I have done my best during the design process of the crossover to study, step by step, the consequence not only of a component change on the acoustic output of the system but also the corresponding change that the amplifier sees in the speakers impedance. Hence, Harbeth speakers as a class have relatively modest load demands on the amp and I would expect then that the sonic signature of exotic cables (if any) would be much less apparent when a decent amp drives Harbeth speakers.

Perhaps you'd like to see for yourself a screen-cam video of how I simultaneously keep track of the acoustics and impedance?

Groovetracer
27-12-2007, 06:56 PM
I think David makes a very important point here. Setting aside the argument of whether cables in general do or don't have a sonic signature, it is conceivable that the more reactive (or erratic) the speaker load presented to the amplifier the more the signature could, conceivably, be audible.

In the case of Harbeth speakers, I have done my best during the design process of the crossover to study, step by step, the consequence not only of a component change on the acoustic output of the system but also the corresponding change that the amplifier sees in the speakers impedance. Hence, Harbeth speakers as a class have relatively modest load demands on the amp and I would expect then that the sonic signature of exotic cables (if any) would be much less apparent when a decent amp drives Harbeth speakers.

Perhaps you'd like to see for yourself a screen-cam video of how I simultaneously keep track of the acoustics and impedance?
Hello Alan, Since you mentioned change in impedance, is there a chart showing the impedance curve of the M40? I know there was one for the M30 on the old Harbeth site. I am currently shopping for an amplifier for the M40 and this is of special interest to me. Happy Holidays!

A.S.
27-12-2007, 09:55 PM
M40 or M40.1 impedance curve? They are very different. M40.1 has a higher impedance and is much easier to drive?

Groovetracer
27-12-2007, 09:59 PM
M40 or M40.1 impedance curve? They are very different. M40.1 has a higher impedance and is much easier to drive?
Hi ALan, I am referring to the M40, NOT the M40.1
BTW, I own both M40 and M30.

A.S.
27-12-2007, 10:13 PM
Please let's move this thread to the correct area (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?p=2576#post2576) of the Harbeth USer Group.

T.W.
28-12-2007, 08:45 PM
You are right. One should remember that the best cable is "no" cable. Since this is not possible the next best cable is a cable that has the lowest impact. The Genesis report in my earlier posting was interesting for me because it described at lot about the different designs and the impact. It's good to now that the "skin effect" only appear at much higher frequencies and that a stranded cable is probably better.

So this 79 strand cable is probably all we need.

Another advice I have is: Ask your wife! If you have some cables two compare ask her if she hears any difference. I have some MIT Terminator II since about ten years. It was a recommendation for my first Harbeth HL5LE. Some month ago I gave the Kimber 8TC a try. (another recommendation) because I wanted the get rid of the "magic" boxes inside the MITs.
We did hear at the most a very small difference. Unable to decide what the better cables are.

Our mens problem is that we are not able to find any peace in mind if we think that there might be something to improve. That is the reason why all this fancy stuff is available. My advice - even for me - is that we should be happy with what we have .... That's hard!

Another example that woman are without fail. I decided to replace my HL5LE by some Super HL5. We went to a listening test. We listened to the Super HL5. Great - pure Harbeth sound but not that much difference to our HL5LE. Then I saw the M40 - a little bit dusty. We gave it a try. That was the moment my wife had to smile. She said: "If you HAVE to buy new speakers then take these" - we did. We love the M40s.

DSRANCE
02-03-2008, 12:13 PM
Another example that woman are without fail. I decided to replace my HL5LE by some Super HL5. We went to a listening test. We listened to the Super HL5. Great - pure Harbeth sound but not that much difference to our HL5LE. Then I saw the M40 - a little bit dusty. We gave it a try. That was the moment my wife had to smile. She said: "If you HAVE to buy new speakers then take these" - we did. We love the M40s.

You lucky, lucky man...............[grin]

Most ladies can hear differences in audio equipment "if they're there" and they don't usually have pre-conceived ideas either. A tragedy that they usually want the Bose "sub-sat" idea instead of a "proper" full range speaker - in my experience in the UK of course.

A.S.
31-03-2008, 09:25 AM
A UK cable supplier has been reported to the Advertising Standards Authority who regulate all advertising in the UK. In brief, the customer complained about the Claims made of this cable in the suppliers literature .... (I quote exactly)

1. "The key to success of our PowerKords is KIMBER's unique cable weave which has proven to dramatically reduce Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) already on the mains supply and to reject further pick up of RFI ...", because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little affect on conducted electromagnetic interference;

2. "... Distortion levels inside equipment is vastly reduced, letting you hear a sound that is vastly clearer and purer, more detailed and far more dynamic ...", because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little affect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and

3. "... eliminate system sound fluctuation and help to create a super-quiet noise floor, allowing more believable dynamics, deeper bass and lower high frequency distortion ... Listen out for a quieter noise floor (expect more dynamic music and greater detail) and a much more cohesive musical sound ...", because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little affect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment.


The ASA considered the case, asked for Expert Witness opinion and concluded - (quote)

"3. Upheld
Our expert considered that [the advertiser] had not supplied any supporting evidence to prove that the noise floor in the audio signal chain was lowered by the advertised devices. He said it had shown that the noise floor on the mains supply could be reduced, but this appeared to be common modes. He understood differential modes were actually more significant than common modes and believed the devices were not dealing with the biggest cause of mains supply spikes. He said no evidence had been provided to show that spike-protecting devices affected audio signals, as opposed to mains voltages. The expert believed it was possible to test the noise floor of a system objectively without perceptual testing and believed this could be done for both a standard mains cable and the Mega/Super Clamp Ultra and the results compared. We considered that the evidence submitted was not sufficiently robust to show that spike-protecting devices would eliminate system sound fluctuation and help create a super-quiet noise floor. We concluded that the ad was misleading.

Action
We told [the advertiser] not use the claims again unless they could substantiate them with robust scientific evidence".

-----------------------------

I do not want to comment on this particular case, but I do want to draw your attention to the fact that we have been promoting the Scientific Method here.

A.S.
31-03-2008, 09:26 AM
A UK cable supplier has been reported to the Advertising Standards Authority (http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudications/Public/TF_ADJ_44177.htm) who regulate all advertising in the UK. In brief, the customer complained about the Claims made of this cable in the suppliers literature .... (I quote exactly)

---------------------------------

1. "The key to success of our PowerKords is KIMBER's unique cable weave which has proven to dramatically reduce Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) already on the mains supply and to reject further pick up of RFI ...", because he believed the PowerKord cable would have little affect on conducted electromagnetic interference;
2. "... Distortion levels inside equipment is vastly reduced, letting you hear a sound that is vastly clearer and purer, more detailed and far more dynamic ...", because he believed the Signature PowerKord cable would have little affect on measurable distortion in hi-fi equipment, and
3. "... eliminate system sound fluctuation and help to create a super-quiet noise floor, allowing more believable dynamics, deeper bass and lower high frequency distortion ... Listen out for a quieter noise floor (expect more dynamic music and greater detail) and a much more cohesive musical sound ...", because he believed the advertised spike-protecting devices would have little affect on the noise floor in hi-fi equipment.


The ASA considered the case, asked for Expert Witness opinion and concluded - (quote)


"3. Upheld
Our expert considered that [the advertiser] had not supplied any supporting evidence to prove that the noise floor in the audio signal chain was lowered by the advertised devices. He said it had shown that the noise floor on the mains supply could be reduced, but this appeared to be common modes. He understood differential modes were actually more significant than common modes and believed the devices were not dealing with the biggest cause of mains supply spikes. He said no evidence had been provided to show that spike-protecting devices affected audio signals, as opposed to mains voltages. The expert believed it was possible to test the noise floor of a system objectively without perceptual testing and believed this could be done for both a standard mains cable and the Mega/Super Clamp Ultra and the results compared. We considered that the evidence submitted was not sufficiently robust to show that spike-protecting devices would eliminate system sound fluctuation and help create a super-quiet noise floor. We concluded that the ad was misleading.

Action
We told [the advertiser] not use the claims again unless they could substantiate them with robust scientific evidence."

-----------------------------

I do not want to comment on this particular case, but I do want to draw your attention to the fact that we have been promoting the Scientific Method (http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?p=2902#post2902) here. I feel sorry for customers who have invested in fancy cables etc. who may now be concerned if their investment was a wise one.

In my listening set-up I have a low-level buzz audible 30cms from the speakers due to some oddity of my earthing arrangement. As I listen 2m+ away from the speakers, this buzz is completely inaudible and is masked by all music. I simply don't have the time or interest in rewiring the whole building to resolve this minute issue ... I just live with it!

Pava
02-05-2008, 10:16 AM
i have a question for everybody, there is someone that have tried HARMONIC TECH CABLE (pro 11 plus or fantasy speakers cable) with harbeth? thank you
Pava - italy

denjo
18-07-2008, 12:08 PM
Hi Fellow Harbethians

Has anyone used or had any experience with Van Damme speaker cables? I read somewhere that these cables are used by BBC in their studios. The cables are relatively inexpensive and are recommended by some big audio manufacturers, Bryston for example.

Best Regards
Dennis

Gan CK
18-07-2008, 01:56 PM
Hi Fellow Harbethians

Has anyone used or had any experience with Van Damme speaker cables? I read somewhere that these cables are used by BBC in their studios. The cables are relatively inexpensive and are recommended by some big audio manufacturers, Bryston for example.

Best Regards
Dennis

Hi Dennis, where can we get hold of these cables in s'pore?

denjo
19-07-2008, 02:14 AM
Hi CK

Please check your pm for reply.

Best Regards
Dennis

Naimeo
13-08-2008, 11:05 AM
I feel sorry for customers who have invested in fancy cables etc. who may now be concerned if their investment was a wise one.
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Hi Alan,

I'm enjoying the C7ES3 tremendously and I have utmost respect for you as a speaker designer. However, I have to say that I don't understand your derisive attitude towards "fancy" cables. After all you have also used more fancy cables for your recent anniversary models - and charged a premium for them. (I hope this doesn't sound offensive but my sincere apology if it does)

"Fancy" can be very subjective too; for some here, anything beyond Qed79 is exotic. It'll be helpful to hear your definition of "exotic" cables and what are the cables you've used to voice your designs.

Thanks.

A.S.
13-08-2008, 06:15 PM
Easy to answer: as a commercial business we're asked to make variations of connectors, cables, packing etc. etc. and if the disruption to production is negligible, and the customer will cover the cost, we'll give it serious consideration. Some users - people I trust - are absolutely certain that changes to the internal cable make a big difference to the sound. We've tried really hard to debate this logically but have always lost the argument to their absolute conviction. The customer is willing to pay for 'fancy' internal cables; we'll fit them and so everyone is happy.

What do I use? Next to me now is the prototype pair of M40.1 playing Diana Krall's 'A night in Paris'. I've just traced the cables from speaker to amp. Both cable-runs have two joints. there is 4 or 5m of OFC black sheath (brand unknown) connected to about 1m of internal-wire (on the right speaker) and about 0.5m of unknown transparent (OFC?) on the left, and finally on each side about 2m of what seems to be 79 strand. Sounds rather good!

My definition of 'exotic'? My definition would be speaker cable that costs more than, say, USD 20/mtr. That's a number plucked from the air. As I've said before, it's a consumer's paradise. If you get more pleasure from using fancy cables then use them. I don't because they don't 'do' anything for me - they don't add a molecule of pleasure to the recording.

The point I want to convey again is that the user should not feel under any pressure to invest a ton of money in your new Harbeths and then feel that he must invest another ton in fancy cables - or stands - or anything. I guarantee that your Harbeths are going to work just great with basic '79 strand' or equivalent because that's what I as their designer use. Ask your dealer for his advice on good basic value-for-money cables.

One thing to add - never, during the entire fifty year history of the BBC's involvement with speaker design employing the world's best audio engineers was the subject of speaker cable ever mentioned, discussed, analysed or given any elevated status. Providing that the cables were adequately thick (for the current and length) that was the end of the matter. Don't you think that if this was a really significant matter that one - just one - of those pragmatic boffins at some point over the fifty years would have taken a look at it? We cannot accuse them of being blinkered or narrow minded when that very group of researchers posed and solved the revolutionary question 'do you think that we could improve fidelity if we replaced paper speaker cones with one made from plastic? Imagine my surprise (as a then audiophile) when upon taking over at Harbeth I discovered that our founder used telephone cable inside his MK1,2,3,4 speakers. But it met his criteria of low resistance (for a short length) and colour coding.

Ferdinand777
17-08-2008, 02:49 AM
do agree that harbeth speakers are not super fussy when it comes to cabling. They do not need hi end cables to sound good. However they are revealing enough to tell differences in various cable designs and manufacturers.
I personally had success with a bunch of cables I tried over the years. To name a few:

a.) Analysis plus theater oval 12s, Oval 12s, Oval 9s.
b.) Audience au24s
c.) Auditorium 23s
d.) Purist Audio Design Museus, Aqueous Anniversary
e.) Speltz Anti-cables
f.) Acoustic Zen Satori

digiphobe
17-08-2008, 05:21 AM
Hi Pava,
I was using the pro 11 plus cabling with some Proac studio 110 speakers prior to owning my current faves- the Harbeth C-7s'. It was a decent enough speaker cable mated up to the proacs foreward presentation. I will however, venture that the H.T. cable would be too subdued or mellow for the Harbeths to be considered ideal. ( I did sell the H.T. cable along with the Prozacs - not my cup o' tee )
At this time I'm considering a more assertive cable for the C-7s'; perhaps silver wire?

denjo
19-08-2008, 12:34 PM
Harbethians

Has anyone used the Van Damme Hi-fi series speaker cables? Here is their website www.van-damme.com

They seem pretty decent and their list of illustrious customers using their cables is very impressive. If studios are using their cables, I think this would be good endorsement of a great product. A bonus point is how inexpensive these cables are compared to some exotic cables out there!

Would like to hear from anyone who has experience with these cables.

Best Regards
Dennis

s.a.b.
21-08-2008, 12:58 AM
To digiphobe,

I use the relatively inexpensive DH Labs Q-10 (which is siver coated over copper) with my C7s and from what you say, it may be what you're looking for. (I actually prefer it to some more expensive cable which I own.)

Naimeo
22-08-2008, 06:31 AM
Agree. I have no doubt the C7ES3 worked really well with humble cables. Even with Rega Quattro, it stunned me enough to buy it and put everything else I've auditioned that's remotely near it's price and sometimes way beyond to shame.

NACA5 served me for over a decade in my last system and changing cables never crossed my mind;until someone inserted a better cable to reveal that the C7ES3 is capable of much more.

BTW, how would you compare the AU24 to Anti-cables?

The Anti-IC worked surprisingly well in my system and I'm quite keen to try their speaker cables. Do you used them with spades or raw and tinned?

ruzhyo
13-09-2008, 03:04 PM
Hi Fellow Harbethians

Has anyone used or had any experience with Van Damme speaker cables? I read somewhere that these cables are used by BBC in their studios. The cables are relatively inexpensive and are recommended by some big audio manufacturers, Bryston for example.

Best Regards
Dennis


Hi, can you tell me where I can find some of these cables in Singapore? Thanks!

ruzhyo
16-09-2008, 03:10 PM
Just got myself some QED 79 terminated with QED Airloc and I love how they sound.

Nothing is boosted and sounds just natural.

Much better than my S$90/m 10 guage copper with pure silver core super duped cables.

Ferdinand777
23-09-2008, 03:12 PM
Agree. I have no doubt the C7ES3 worked really well with humble cables. Even with Rega Quattro, it stunned me enough to buy it and put everything else I've auditioned that's remotely near it's price and sometimes way beyond to shame.

NACA5 served me for over a decade in my last system and changing cables never crossed my mind;until someone inserted a better cable to reveal that the C7ES3 is capable of much more.

BTW, how would you compare the AU24 to Anti-cables?

The Anti-IC worked surprisingly well in my system and I'm quite keen to try their speaker cables. Do you used them with spades or raw and tinned?


Audience 24 is still better than Anti-cables in my system. It more refine, sweeter and more define. But anti cables is bang for buck.

Dominic
26-09-2008, 02:17 PM
Just got some Qed 79 cables today, will try them out soon.

digiphobe
28-09-2008, 08:01 AM
Hey s.a.b,
I've recently burned in a pair of Clear Day Shotgun speaker cables. These are made up of 4 strands of 24 gauge per side of pure solid core silver (they look more like boot laces than speaker hose!)
They actually sound quite remarkable in that they don't editorialize the sound and yet are full bandwidth, and they're also fairly inexpensive: 205 US$ shipped to Canada
As advertized in www.audiogon.com .......................................Recomended.

bbtan
14-10-2008, 07:46 AM
IDoes Compact 7 sound good with Anti-Cable i/c and speaker cable or only the speaker cable...anyone here using these combinations....

Vlado
30-11-2008, 12:09 PM
This thread concerns finding cable solutions.

Hello All,
I would like to make a recommendation concerning cables, but not in the usual matter of cable hype, the recommendation is strictly technical. Of course you can find also other brands which make high quality cables and don?t make the usual hype.

The brand name is Oyaide. All cables are manufactured by Furukawa Electric upon Oyaide design, using very high quality cooper and the manufacturing technology is top.

The speaker cable ACROSS 2000 looks quite similar to the 79 strand design and the ACROSS 750 interconnects have a very clever construction. The alternative for balanced connection is ACROSS 900. The prices are not bargain because the import fees and transport cost from Japan, but from the point of view of long term investment, I think the prices are acceptable and there is a second benefit, you can buy these cables by footage. The ACROSS 2000 is at app. 30? / meter.

http://www.oyaide.com/e_audio/index_top.htm

T.W.
19-01-2009, 05:37 PM
This may help to decide how much money to spend for cables ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_cable

Vlado
19-01-2009, 08:08 PM
Hi Thomas,
I had the possibility to listen a large sample of interconnect / speaker wires and I can confirm that there is a difference between brands and types. It is up to you (the customer) if the difference is worth of the amount requested by the manufacturer. Personaly I think it is not worth. If you buy OFC speaker cable, you have to know thar ALL cooper cables are OFC. Becouse of the manufacturing process. Something else is monocrystal cable ( Furukawa is one of from multiple manufacturers who produce MONO C cables) there you have indeed higher conductivuty. Everythig depend on the requested price. And forger cryo threatment. It's BULSHIT !




This may help to decide how much money to spend for cables ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_cable

T.W.
11-02-2009, 09:26 AM
I want to move my equiment from the middle between the speakers to the side wall.
I have to get new speaker cables that have to be about 7m long.

I lived with my current cables for about 10 years now since I got my first HL5s.
These are MIT Terminator 2.

I borrowed some others to decide what to buy next. The interesting point is that all
of them sound noticable different. All of them seem to have an influence at least to the bass.
That really impressed me!

MIT Termintor 2 (3m)
Heavy bass. Stage is near. Sometimes magic. The music seems to play in your head.
Seams to have some coloration in the mid / voices - not sure.

QED Original (7.5m)
Neutral. Fewer bass and probably a bit muddy. Stage is further afar.

Kimber 8TC Jubilee
Neutral, excellent bass clear and precise. Less bass than the two others.
Stage is the same as QED.

Ok, it always takes some time to change cables and that the brain sometimes lets
you hear what you want to hear. I like the Kimber because it looks nice :-)
I'm quite sure that there is a noticable difference between the MIT and the others.
But it's very hard to decide whether the other two are really different.
The MITs have some magic boxes that probably contain some passive elements to
control / manipulate the electric properties of the cables. The first thing you really
notice compared to a standard low-cost cable is the much heavier bass (Whether
this is good or not is another question).

My question is. Do you think that it really matters how long the cables are. Is about 7m too long?
What is your experience? What electric properties do I have to look for with longer cables?

Kimber 8TC for 2.5m at 20kHz
Cp (Parallel capacitance): 821pF
Cs (Series capacitance): 820 pF
Lp (Parallel inductance): 0.4 ?H
Ls (Series inductance): 0.3 ?H
Rdc (ds resistance). 0.018 Ohm
XT (Total reactance): 0.044 Ohm
Frequency response +/+ 0.5 db - 300kHz

(For 7m it would be almost three times the above values.)

A.S.
11-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Assuming that the technical measurements of the cable are as you say, then I'd say the cable - or indeed any cable of similar specification - was technically perfect. If that is so, it beggars belief how one type of technically perfect cable can sound different to another technically perfect cable doesn't it.

Let's put this all into sharp perspective. You say that 2.5m of this cable has a DC resistance of 0.018 ohms. So that's 0.0072 ohms per metre (which strikes me as almost unbelievably low unless the conductor is really fat). However, let's take your figure as correct. You are planning to run 7m so that's 0.0072 ohms x 7 = 0.0504 ohms per cable run from the amp to each speaker. Does that sound a little or a lot?

Ok, let's have a look at this then. Let's use round numbers for convenience. Let's say that the speaker is specified as 5 ohms impedance. Let's divide the 5 ohms by the cable resistance of 0.050 .... that means that the cable resistance is only 1% of the speaker's specified impedance. Can we ignore the cable's resistance as it's such a tiny percentage of the speaker's impedance? I agree - yes we can. It's probably many percent lower than would make any measurable or audible difference. What other resistances are there inside the speaker? Don't forget the crossover coils. They typically have a resistance of about 0.5 ohms (ten times greater than your 7m of speaker cable to the amp!).

My point is that there is a lot of resistance inside the speaker box and none of it is 'good' as it all wastes power; consequently there is absolutely no need to select speaker cables for super-low resistance because the dominant resistance will be in the speaker box not the cable to the speaker by typically a factor of 95:1 (or in your case, 99:1). The extra resistance from the cable will add an utterly undetectable 1% to the speaker's impedance (resistance) so can be completely ignored. No human ear can detect 1% change in level. 10% - maybe.

I always feel that what we forget is that the performance of a reproduction chain such as that from the microphone to your ears is always governed (or limited) by the weakest link in that chain and that the weakest link(s) may not be under your control no matter how much money and effort you invest in improving all the other links. The weakest parts of the chain are those involving any, all and every electro-mechanical components that is, the microphone (and the user has no influence over that) the pick-up/turntable and the LP cutting mechanism (the user has no influence over that either) and of course the loudspeaker. Money spent on the turntable/pick-up and loudspeaker will definitely reward you. Money spent on all the other parts of the chain will offer a much, much lower bang for your buck if any at all.

I see that this is my 999th posting here; I do hope that some of it has been of interest in guiding you to achieving the very best possible sound without wasting a cent. For about thirty years I've been cautioning hi-fi listeners about counterbalancing what they truly, honestly, passionately think that their senses are telling them with a more cautious, disciplined approach. Perhaps now the economic situation will force many to re-evaluate frittering money on gadgets and gismos that they admit to themselves, months later, actually didn't increase the fidelity of their system one jot. Such as - and I pick this from a long, long list of abandoned crackpot ideas - colouring the edge of your CD with a felt tipped pen - once an absolute 'must have' craze. Remember it?

I hope that you've seen some of the videos (in Designer's Notebook) we've started to roll-out about how the design process actually works at Harbeth. You'll see that there is constant attention to the delicate balance between what my ears tells me sounds right and what the test equipment says measures well. It's critically important not to allow your ears to seduce you; something they are very, very capable of doing!

T.W.
11-02-2009, 09:20 PM
Alan,

Thanks for your detailed answer. I know that this discussion drives you crazy...

I'm an engineer. I did the same calculations as you did. I also posted some
of my findings about this discussion in this forum. From a technical standpoint I totally
agree with what you say! 100%

But :-) ...

I'm quite sure that I can trust my ears. Lets get back to my three cables.
- The QED is basically a 79 strand cable. I couldn't get the QED classic 79 strand, so I took
the QED original. This is because of your postings about cables. The cable is fine and
probably all I need. It also has some good connector that fit very tight.
- The Kimber looks nice!
- The MIT is what I had forever.

You're right. It's probably an academic discussion whether the QED or the Kimber have
better electric properties. These properties differ, but compared to the load of the crossover
and the speakers it's negligible. I just wanted to make sure that I make the right decission.

My old MIT definitely sounds different than the two others!
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/attachment.php?attachmentid=408&stc=1&d=1234386480
There seems to be something in the boxes that manipulates the sound.

And now I go to father's room to listen to my Harbeth ... :-)

TW

A.S.
12-02-2009, 08:13 AM
I'm quite sure that I can trust my ears....Well, here we are with my 1000th post and back around the familiar subject of trusting your ears or not.

You as a consumer (and I'm not picking on you - your opinions are widely held) truly, honestly and totally trust you ears and I accept this. But the odd thing is that I, as a loudspeaker designer, making a living, paying the bills, raising my family don't trust my ears. If I did, I'd potentially put my family at risk because if my ears fooled me (something they are more than capable of doing, and have frequently done so) I could be on the streets or stacking supermarket shelves.

So why is it that you (by which I mean, consumers generally) with nothing to lose have this unshakeable self-confidence in just one of your senses when I, with everything to lose, am much more cautious? The reason that it's madness to put too much faith in any of our senses is staggeringly obvious ....

1) Our senses are not calibrated. What you consider to be 'hot' another may say is just 'warm'.

2) All senses degrade with age: none of them improve. Average hearing acuity markedly degrades with age both for sensitivity and also frequency response. Your hearing today is better than it will be next week and much better than it will be in ten years. It can never improve. So you better do all your critical listening today .... or design a test process which allows you to draw the best possible conclusions well into your old age!

3) There is no commonality of descriptive language to describe sensory experience from person to person. Measuring instruments (e.g. thermometer, dB sound meter, ruler) were invented by man to provide an independence from age, infirmity and misunderstanding to be sure that everyone was referenced to the same scale.

4) If you are tired, stressed, have travelled far, are under the doctor or have a head cold or are generally sick your hearing will be compromised.

5) I doubt that 1% of so-called 'audiophiles' have ever had their hearing tested. So you really don't know how good or bad those ears are and whether you dare to trust them. I am aware of an industry figure who claims to have exceptional hearing who had his hearing tested recently. I'm told that he has lost 95% of his hearing in one ear at 1kHz, which makes him profoundly deaf at the most critical part of the audio spectrum. His claims of super-acuity are therefore self-deluded bunkum. Yet people believe him.

6) The hyper-critical audio memory is pitifully short. I'd say about 1 second at the maximum. So, if there is a break of more than about one second whilst you switch between item A and B whatever conclusion you draw is false because the memory of the previous condition has faded too far. Your conclusion wouldn't stand up in court and you'd be made a laughing-stock of by the defence lawyers.

7) Listening is intimately bound-up with emotions. As you say, one of the cables looks pretty. It's impossible to be objective if you can see the product, handle it and are aware if its reputation and cost.

So trusting in those ears without putting in place counterbalancing comparator or measurement techniques to guard against the limitations of your ears is folly. Unless you see 'audiophilia' as purely art, have money to burn, where absolutes really don't matter and where you have no shame in continuously reversing rock-solid conclusions that you have drawn. For about fifty dollars you can construct a relay-operated instantaneous change-over box that switches from item A to item B without a break. And what do you then discover when you sit and switch silently between A and B ...... P.S. The reason that the BBC's pioneering approach to loudspeaker design is so highly regarded is largely due to the fact that even in that one department they didn't totally trust their ears either.

T.W.
12-02-2009, 10:15 AM
Dear Alan,

First of all congratulation to your 1.000 post. I think it was a good subject for this jubilee.
It's all about the ears and the brain that all Harbeth users have and that's the reason why
all of us owe at least one pair.

Another point is that I really enjoy this forum. I have a shortcut on my desktop and click on it
probably 1000 times a day. My joy with the forum has also a lot to do with the fact that you are
always there. I don't know any other forum where users can get in touch with the designer
and owner of a company in that way. I'm looking forward to the next 1.000 posts ...

Now lets have a look at your ears and your brain. I'm sure that also you trust your ears a bit.
I'm not saying that you rely on what you hear without verifying the result ecpecially when it
comes to speaker design. But without a least a bit confidence you would not have this job
and would not design these beautiful speakers.

When I got my first HL5's I just trusted my ears. There have probably been some nicer looking
speakers in the shops, but I didn't care and took these black boxes home.

Measurements are needed for your design process and just trusting you ears would be crazy.
But I'm quite sure that you also don't solely rely on your messurements. The Harbeth sound
is a mix of what you measure and what you hear.

The problem with measurements is that each measurement includes some faults and that there
is always a model of the nature that somebody came up with and that is build into the
measurement equipement. Even if a speaker measures flat (if this is the target) then there
is still a small chance that the model that we have about tones, sinus, FFT and all that
stuff is just crap. So you probably finally trust your ears ...

Again, good to have you there.

TW

Vlado
14-02-2009, 02:11 PM
......Oyaide......



Well I answer to my own post.....

I have had the possility to compare the mentioned Oyaide Across speaker cable with Van Damme Blue Studio.
I can report that there is NO difference between the two cables.

But one difference is obvious, the Van Damme cable is ten times cheaper and looks good too..

Pluto
15-02-2009, 09:22 PM
I'm sure that also you trust your ears a bit...

A key question is "how large is that bit?"

A major point that has been made is the exceedingly short validity of our auditory memory. We are very good at recognising and remembering certain aspects about the quality of sound, especially the human voice. Young babies learn, at a remarkably early age, to react to mother's voice and distinguish it from others. The ability to recognise the sound of familiar companions is something we perfect quite early in our development and retain well past the point at which our hearing is significantly degraded. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that, at least in part, different mechanisms are at work when we have to recognise a familiar voice or remember the quality of one audio component compared with another. The former is an ability we retain for life, the latter - worse than the proverbial goldfish.

The ability to recognise other people's voices is one the main evolutionary drivers of our hearing system (is that my friend behind me, or someone who wants to steal my stash?) and throughout our lives we are far better at dealing with voices than any other sound source. Sometimes I wonder how much the people who design audio equipment realise this simple fact. Alan Shaw has explained at length how important the human voice is to his design process. Yet how many audio dealers do you know who encourage you to play recordings of simple speech when you are a prospective buyer? Many, I suspect, would laugh at you out of ignorance but there is a significant minority who will get exceedingly twitchy for a simple reason: most loudspeakers sound hopeless when asked to reproduce everyday speech and if you took a known half-decent, dry, speech recording to the shops when selecting your speakers it becomes all too easy to eliminate most of the standard items on show. Play the recording for a minute or two at a natural level then ask yourself whether or not this really could be someone in the room with you. Most of the time the answer is obvious - this is clearly not a real human voice. The harder part is working our why the voice is not right and there are a number of possible answers but provided that the listening room is not too lively and you are listening in the near field, the speakers themselves are the most likely culprit.

The dealer is probably still laughing (but more nervously by now) and trying to argue with you (while trying not to argue with a potential customer) of the irrelevance of your test. OK - for now, let's not include the significant few who listen mainly to speech radio. But the significance of the test is of devastating importance. If a speaker cannot reproduce the subtleties of human speech sufficiently well, what chance has it with music? A speaker that does well in the speech test is not guaranteed to do well with music - there are a great many hurdles at which it could fall - but a speaker incapable of passing the voice test is unlikely to prove a good all rounder when playing music.

Jeff Day
27-02-2009, 11:02 PM
Fellow Harbethians, I wanted to share with you a recent interconnect discovery I made by happenstance. I will be writing it up for Positive Feedback Online in the future, but I thought you'd enjoy a preview.

First of all, it is a DIY interconnect, so you have to be a bit handy with a soldering iron to put it together. Somewhat tongue in cheek I call it the the DIY 'GOAT' interconnect (GOAT = Greatest of All Time) because of its extremely modest cost and extremely high performance. This interconnect competes easily with some of my favorite interconnects in the $1100 per meter range, and at times betters them. The GOATs will cost you about $70 per meter to build.

How this all came about: After a tonearm rewire, I was listening to the tonearm wire through my line stage using my computer/DAC combo as a source courtesy a slick little connector wire with cartridge connections on one end and RCAs on the other. The connector wire connects to the cartridge connections on the tonearm wire on one end and plugs into the DAC output on the other, and then the RCA outs from the tonearms plug into a line level input on the preamp. Well, what happens is that instantly the tonearm wire becomes part of your line circuit so you can evaluate its sonics in a relatively neutral environment.

So the result was one of those 'Holy Crap!' moments that we all hope we'll have once in a while. This particular tonearm wire makes fantastic interconnects!

So here's what you need for a 1 meter pair of interconnects:

1- 2 meters of Cardas tonearm wire. I bought mine from Parts Connexion (parts # Cardas 64312). it has has 4 internal copper Litz wire bundles (red, green, blue, and white) plus a shield and thin wall jacket wrapped around it.

2- 4 SwitchCraft RCAs. These are the same RCAs used by Ken Shindo on his pricey silver interconnects - they are really good, and very inexpensive, making them a double winner. I bought mine from telephoneparts.com. Search on SWC-3502A and they'll come up. They are $1.95 each in smaller quantities - you'll need 4 for a pair of interconnects.

I used silver solder, and set my Hakko soldering iron to 375 degrees C (700 degrees F). The tonearm wires are a bit difficult to solder because of their small size, so it might take you a bit to get the hang of it. Be patient and observe sound soldering technique. You might order an extra foot of tonearm wire to give yourself some working room.

I solder the red & green wires to the center pin, and the blue & white wires to the return. It takes a bit of practicing to get everything just right, so don't feel bad if you have trouble soldering them up the first time. The sonics changes quite a bit over the first 100 hours or so before things settle down.

My friend Stephaen who writes for 6Moons loaned me his Hagerman Fry-Baby to break in the wires. The FB is a terrific little device and a real time (and ear) saver. There's definately one in my future.

After you get everything all soldered up plug them in and enjoy! For a meager $70 you'll be able to find out what the cats spending over $1100 per meter for interconnects are enjoying. The result is phenomenal, and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Best,

Jeff

tricka
28-02-2009, 10:23 AM
Thanks Jeff.....

digiphobe
01-03-2009, 05:20 PM
Thanks Jeff, wouldn't it be funny if your homebrewed cables bested cardas's own top line cables!

Jeff Day
01-03-2009, 07:33 PM
Thanks Jeff, wouldn't it be funny if your homebrewed cables bested cardas's own top line cables!
Well, dare I say it, but I actually preferred them in a friend's system to his top-shelf Golden Cross, which is one of my all-time favorite cables, and a cable set that I kick myself for selling off some years ago.

The GOATs have a tonal balance similar to the Golden Reference cables, but without the Ref's somewhat edgy and overly detailed presentation.

Overall the GOAT interconnects are the best interconnects I've had in my system, and the fact that they are cheap is the icing on the cake.

I particularly like the way the GOATs handle the time elements of music like melody, rhythm, tempo, and meter. Very engaging, yet very natural as well, and I always feeling like what the musicians are doing on a recording in the time realm is coming through convincingly without being overblown or softened unnecessarilly. Fixed dynamics like forte, mezzo forte, pianissimo, etc., come across very believably as well, as do the fixed dynamics of creschendos and diminuendos. This really helps me stay connected with the music on an emotional level.

The GOATs do a really nice job presenting harmonies, overtones, and harmonics. They're detailed enough that you pick up on all those things llke you should, but aren't so overly detailed that they serve as a source of distraction from the music.

The portrayal of instrumental timbre is natural, but perhaps doesn't have that Kodachrome intensity of tonal color that the Golden Cross does. But for example, the way the portray both bowed & plucked strings will be a revelation from many listeners. Woodwinds and keyboards are quite stunning really, and percussion is out of this worly. Wait until you hear how realistic non-pitched percussion like drums, the triangle, and the orchestral gong sound - you'll be blown away! Pitched percussion like timpani, mallet instruments, the celesta, and tubular bells are equally gorgeous. Brass is pretty impressive, but I wouldn't want it to be any more brassy, or it'd start to border on being a bit aggressive. Fine as it is, but ... .

All the usual audiophile stuff is there in abundance: imaging, soundstaging, etc. So here you have a cable that is well balanced and soncially and musically, and I think a lot of listeners will find a lot to like about it (at least I do!).

The Golden Cross are darker & lusher sounding, a little more intense with regards to tonal color, and they beat the GOATS in capturing that last little bit of the volume of sound-space and sense of air, but the GC's mid-bass is also boomier and less articulate, making them a little annoying in my system with the M40.1s (which will reveal anything that is a little out of balance from top-to-bottom). In a system with less bass or a bit of suck-out in the midrange, the GCs could be pretty wonderful though.

Although, the real story here is that here are some inexpensive DIY cables that can run with the big dogs, take a bite out of their hind quarters in a couple of places, and then run on by and let you settle in and enjoy the music. That's a pretty neat trick!

Cheers,

Jeff

P.C.
02-03-2009, 02:50 AM
Jeff, any advice on if these can be used as balanced interconnects? and if so how would one terminate them with XLRs. Thanks philip.

Jeff Day
02-03-2009, 03:03 AM
Jeff, any advice on if these can be used as balanced interconnects? and if so how would one terminate them with XLRs. Thanks philip.
I've never built any balanced interconnects, so I'm afraid I can't be of much help on that one. Sorry about that, P.C.

Best,

Jeff

Vlado
02-03-2009, 04:32 PM
...I solder the red & green wires to the center pin, and the blue & white wires to the return......



Hi Jeff,
where you soldered the shield? obviously to the return, but on both ends or just at one end?

Kindly

Vlado

Jeff Day
03-03-2009, 01:20 AM
Hi Jeff,
where you soldered the shield? obviously to the return, but on both ends or just at one end?

Kindly

Vlado
Hi Vlado,

I 'floated' the shield so it is not soldered on either end. I've found this approach to often produce a very nice result.

Kind regards,

Jeff

tricka
03-03-2009, 09:49 AM
Thanks Jeff....

Vlado
03-03-2009, 06:21 PM
....how would one terminate them with XLRs.....



Certainly it's possible to terminate the cable with XLRs. One wire to + (hot), one wire to - (cold), two wires to GND and it's up to you if you connect (on both sides) the shield to GND or you can leave it floating as Jeff did on his RCA terminated cable. How this balanced cable will sound compared to unbalanced is in the stars, till somebody perform the test.

Kindly

P.S. you can also try: two wires to + (hot), two wires to - (cold), shield to GND

Vlado
08-03-2009, 11:04 AM
I want to share with you one web statement regarding cables. Posted as it is:

The fact that they (the cables) are priced exorbitantly is not a matter of cost but proportional to the number of suckers at any given moment.

francisco
19-02-2010, 09:10 AM
Hi, anyone is using, (or have used), the Kimber 8PR or 8VS speaker cable with SHL5, you know one good speaker cable for SHL5 with tubes?
Except Auditorium 23 .Regards.

moqadam
23-04-2010, 11:33 AM
Since I havenít seen anybody mention my setup, so I would like to know if its ok; Im placing my amp in the side not in middle between the two speakers, hence the amp is very close to one speaker but far from the other.

My question can I make the length speaker cable for one speaker only 2 m and the other 6 m? And should the long cable need to be thicker gauge than the shorter cable? And should I go to Classic 79 strand cost £1.95/metre not Original?

Im asking this because as far I know long speaker cable degrade sound quality and also one speaker might sound different than the other since the two cable length are not identical.

If this has been answered before please let me know the link.
Thanks very much.

STHLS5
23-04-2010, 02:42 PM
My question can I make the length speaker cable for one speaker only 2 m and the other 6 m? And should the long cable need to be thicker gauge than the shorter cable?

Hi,

As far as I know the difference within 25% in length makes no significant effect to the sound.

ST

honmanm
23-04-2010, 02:46 PM
Some years ago I had a setup with 4m on one side and 2m on the other (or something like that) and didn't notice any difference - that was with small Maggies and a Sumo Nine amp (the amp instructions say about speaker cables - go to the hardware store and get some lamp cord).

There is a good article on cables on the Pass DIY (http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/articles/spkrcabl.pdf) site (not accessible at time of writing). Personally I'd follow the amp maker's recommendations when it comes to cable, if anything will be affected by choice of cable it is the amp rather than the speaker.

hifi_dave
23-04-2010, 07:09 PM
Depending on the cable you shouldn't hear the difference. However, if you are using an inexpensive cable, why would you not have equal lengths ? If you move or rearrange the system, you might need equal lengths and at £1.95/mtr, you might just as well keep them the same.

Having said that, your speakers deserve something better than 79 strand !!!

moqadam
23-04-2010, 11:07 PM
STHLS5, honmanm, and hifi_dave thank you all for reply. Im doing this because if I make long length for closer speaker then the cable will be laying in the floor with too many layers! No problem I will make same length for both.

Having said that, your speakers deserve something better than 79 strand !!![/QUOTE]

My understanding Alan recommend only 79 strand and so the users! will what do you recommend? A higher model in Qed or different brand? I have Transparent cable with network box is it better? Im not sure these networks are best tech unless someone have good inputs, because sometimes I feel these things change the sound somehow?

The thing I don’t want to change any chemistry of SHL-5! I want to hear Harbeth that supposes to sound! improving the sound yes but without any changes.

Thanos
24-04-2010, 01:55 AM
Hi, anyone is using, (or have used), the Kimber 8PR or 8VS speaker cable with SHL5, you know one good speaker cable for SHL5 with tubes?
Except Auditorium 23 .Regards.

Hi
I've been using the 8TC since 2003, when I bought it with a great discount from the local distributor. It has proved to be very reliable and pretty well matching the SHL5s, so I assume both these two versions will sound equally nice.
Cheers,
Thanos

coredump
24-04-2010, 02:13 AM
I'm the spoilsport. save the money. simply use classic QED 79 Strand Speaker Cable. if have spare cash, terminate it with the AED airloc connectors

http://www.av4home.co.uk/acatalog/QED_79_Strand_Speaker_Cable.html

to be frank, it makes no different. you will never remember how it sound after spending 5minutes disconnecting and reconnecting it back. same goes to changing tubes to NOS, changing jenson paper capacitors to Black Gates oil cap, changing UPOCC silver cables to Mundorf gold. recently i audition a amplifier upgrade, after an hour of modification and hundreds of dollar spend, the results is unconvincing.

STHLS5
24-04-2010, 03:26 AM
I'm the spoilsport. save the money. simply use classic QED 79 Strand Speaker Cable. if have spare cash, terminate it with the AED airloc connectors

http://www.av4home.co.uk/acatalog/QED_79_Strand_Speaker_Cable.html

to be frank, it makes no different. you will never remember how it sound after spending 5minutes disconnecting and reconnecting it back. same goes to changing tubes to NOS, changing jenson paper capacitors to Black Gates oil cap, changing UPOCC silver cables to Mundorf gold. recently i audition a amplifier upgrade, after an hour of modification and hundreds of dollar spend, the results is unconvincing.

Moqadam, I agree with coredrum. Do you think Alan, the amplifier designers, Cd player makers used exotic cables during the design stage? Some cables do alter the sound so too a digital equalizer, tone or bass control. Changes induced by cables are too subtle than you can positively identify them under ABX test unless you are repeatedly listening to a track which is very familiar to you. Even in that case, after a day you wouldn't able to tell which cables is being used!!!

Google for Roger Russell's homepage ( and also Westhost homepage) for a good understanding about cables effect and myth. Too bad I only came to know about his site after spending so much on cables and making a fool out of myself when I was listening for months using inexpensive cables without realising that I forgot to swithc them back after one ABX test. Now, I am contend with inexpensive cables. You may want to consider shielded cables in the case of RFI or EMI in your system.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
ST

moqadam
24-04-2010, 12:01 PM
Thanks very much Coredump and STHLS5 for links and helpful information. Nice link for Rogers Russell indeed very helpful. :) Im too spend lot money in Transparent cables which now I feel waste money because I feel these exotic cables remove the warmth and natural sound. Hmm… I have been told many times “simplicity is better”.

I have Monster connectors are better than Qed? And shall I go for Banana or Spade connectors I mean do they sound different? Also, how I shield speaker cable from RFI or EMI noises (if very important)?

Thanks

STHLS5
24-04-2010, 03:56 PM
lso, how I shield speaker cable from RFI or EMI noises (if very important)?

Not for speaker wires (though I don't see why not ) but for interconnects and power cables but only if you are having RFI related problem.

hifi_dave
24-04-2010, 09:14 PM
When it comes to anything audio, in my opinion, the simpler the better and that applies to cables. I have heard many cables with networks attached and they behave like a tone control, whish is fine if you want to doctor the sound. If you want to keep it natural you need a good quality, simple cable which needn't be expensive.

I would recommend something along the lines of Chord Rumour-2 or their Odyssey-2, neither of which are expensive. If you can't tell the difference straightaway with these then there is something wrong with your system.

Takis
17-05-2010, 04:14 PM
I've replaced my Kimber 8tc with QED "original", single-wire. It has 79 strands (2,5mm2) like the classic "79strand" but the dielectric is Polyethylene instead of PVC and the copper is O.F. 99,999%
I did not notice any difference worth consideration in my system (Krell amp, Copland cdp, SHL5). Very good sound either way.
The price per metre for the QED is normal, (about €5, many times lower than the Kimbers), it is thin, almost invisible and does a perfect job.
The strange thing is that i think it sounded a little tiny bit louder than the kimber and it is longer!!! (Kimber: 2X2,95 metres QED: 2X5,50 metres).
I have already sold the Kimbers.