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View Full Version : Which subwoofer have you paired with your Harbeths?



george_k
01-03-2010, 04:06 AM
What subwoofer have you paired with your Harbeths? Looking for suggestion to fill the lower frequencies on my C7 setup.

denjo
01-03-2010, 02:07 PM
ACI Force XL (Mono). Works quite well with SHL5.

keithwwk
02-03-2010, 09:57 AM
tried single and dual (as stereo, L and R) SVS PB10 active sub with external anologue xo and electrical + digital external xo + external digital room eq and also REL Strata 3 and 5 w/o any external xo and room eq.

Currently using a old REL strata mk1 with my c7 running full range. Still fine tweaking the sub due to some room mode issue.

trh8654
11-03-2010, 12:51 PM
REL R505 with my SHL5s

george_k
11-03-2010, 04:01 PM
I'll be demo-ing at JL Audio F110 vs a REL B3 tomorrow and will report back my findings. Thanks for the R-505 suggestion, I'll see if they have one in stock I can demo as well.

jdinco
12-03-2010, 04:32 PM
REL R500 with my C7's - great results.

george_k
14-03-2010, 12:32 AM
Demo'd both subs for about 2 hours in store and ended up ordering the B3 in Cherry :-)

keithwwk
14-03-2010, 11:17 AM
REL is always good for music.

Paul G Smith
19-03-2010, 10:27 AM
B&W ASW750s for me

Drdennis
11-05-2012, 11:48 AM
REL B-3 with C7ES3. Excellent results.

STHLS5
11-05-2012, 02:00 PM
Rythmik F12SE with my SHL5. I like it because the of the precise low pass crossover point and the phase adjustments which is very important for proper integration with the main speakers. It is cheap and well built. I did audition other subs like Velodyn, Sunfire and Rel but nothing gave me the control like the Rythmik considering that you only need very little bass extension with the Super5.

Beware though, you are not going to hear the sub often ( if you have set up correctly) unless you want the extra bass that is not part of the original recordings.

ST

Liotheles
11-08-2012, 10:57 PM
I use a REL Storm V with SHL5's in my 30m2 listening room.
It integrates very well and just adds a nice and solid fundament for the music in my room.
Happy listener :)

Owentdc
12-08-2012, 11:31 AM
Similar to the comment above, my 10 year old REL Strata III works seemlessly with the SHL5s in a 10'x20'x8' room.

garmtz
13-08-2012, 11:46 AM
Velodyne DD10. Significantly better than any REL out there.

michaelp
19-08-2012, 09:09 PM
BK XXLS400 here. BK Electronics is a small British company that sell direct. Subs have high level connections so can be connected to the speaker outputs of your amplifier and the crossover/volume set independently (and a remaining line-level connections used separately for home cinema purposes).

steveinaz
19-05-2014, 08:51 PM
SVS PB12-NSD (late model) with 7ES3's. Xover at 55Hz in a 2.1 system. Very satisfied with the results.

jjgasp
20-05-2014, 05:09 AM
JL Audio F113

richman610
20-05-2014, 10:48 AM
>BK XXLS400 here. BK Electronics is a small British company that sell direct. Subs have high level connections so can be connected to the speaker outputs of your amplifier and the crossover/volume set independently (and a remaining line-level connections used separately for home cinema purposes).

+1 for BK subs. I have this model too and it's shockingly good value. Compared to a REL R-328 and went with the BK.

witwald
26-05-2014, 12:12 PM
SVS PB12-NSD (late model) with 7ES3's. Xover at 55Hz in a 2.1 system. Very satisfied with the results.

The SVS PB12-NSD appears to have a –3dB low-frequency cut-off point of around 21 Hz relative to the (very flat) response in the pass-band. See the measured response here (http://www.svsound.com/PB12-NSD#.U4MY7k0RDuo).

witwald
26-05-2014, 12:26 PM
Rythmik F12SE with my SHL5. I like it because the of the precise low pass crossover point and the phase adjustments which is very important for proper integration with the main speakers. It is cheap and well built. I did audition other subs like Velodyn, Sunfire and Rel but nothing gave me the control like the Rythmik considering that you only need very little bass extension with the Super5.

The Rythmik F12SE seems to have a –3 dB low-frequency cut-off point of around 12 Hz or so! A measured frequency response curve can be found here (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE_specs.html). The response has a gentle roll-off at low frequencies, with a quite rounded knee.

I'd be interested to learn the answers to three questions:


What crossover frequency was used to partner the F12SE with the SHL5 speakers?
What were the crossover slopes of the low-pass and high-pass filter sections?
Where was the subwoofer positioned in relation to the SHL5 speakers?

witwald
26-05-2014, 12:44 PM
JL Audio F113

The JL Audio Fathom f113 subwoofer has a 3 dB low-frequency cut-off point of around 20 Hz relative to the flat part of its pass-band response. The measured frequency response curve can be found here (http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media/mfg/9013/media_document/dev_1/34028_eprint.pdf?1306382188).

It would be interesting to learn the following details of the subwoofer+speaker setup:


The crossover frequency used.
The slopes of the low-pass and high-pass filter sections.
The position of the subwoofer relative to the main speakers.
The main speakers that have been used.

richerm
26-05-2014, 05:07 PM
For those brave enough to confront the mathematics, there is some comprehensive analysis of the issues surrounding integration of subwoofers with main speakers, including crossover type and offset distance, presented by the German/American loudspeaker design "legend" Siegfried Linkwitz on his website here :
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm#T

willem
27-05-2014, 05:09 PM
In my experience the differences between broadly comparable subs are far smaller than the contribution made by the room, and by vicious room modes in particular. So for me, I think a room equalization system such as the various DSpeaker Antimodes is imperative.

The only conceivable exception could just possibly be a small sub in a large room. However, my PV1d in a 60 sq m room still benefitted enormously from the insertion of an Antimode.
Willem

witwald
29-05-2014, 12:13 PM
For those brave enough to confront the mathematics, there is some comprehensive analysis of the issues surrounding integration of subwoofers with main speakers, including crossover type and offset distance, presented by the German/American loudspeaker design "legend" Siegfried Linkwitz on his website here :
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_5.htm#T

Thank you, richerm, for sharing that link. There were a lot interesting example plots on the topic of matching up a subwoofer with a set of main speakers located there. A lot of useful information was presented.

richerm
29-05-2014, 08:28 PM
Willem, you really ought to be getting some commission from the DSpeaker people! You are right, though, it does implement one of the most effective equalisation strategies for 'real' room sub-bass response.

willem
30-05-2014, 03:13 PM
I admit I mention this often. However, I do believe that the room is often the biggest barrier to good audio, and ironically the more so the more ambitious the equipment. Digital recordings can be very good, decent amplifiiers and Dac's rarely contribute much of their own, and neither do even pretty cheap cables or ordinary mains electricity.

The truly hard parts of the chain are in the mechanical/electrical interface of microphones and speakers, and in the interaction of the sound with the room. Inject too much low bass into a room that is too small for that, and you are asking for trouble. So begin with allocating a large part of the budget to top notch speakers, avoid speakers that produce too much and too low bass for the room, and keep them well away from walls. If you still want to have more bass, you will have to tame the bass with equalization. The science is clear, and the benefits of equalization are clearly measurable. They are also very audible, unlike most of the products pushed by voodoo scientists. For me, the most surprising thing is that there is not more on the market: DSpeaker is just about the only show in town, apart from a few more modest systems directly built into some expensive subwoofers.

The benefits of dsp room equalization are an extreme form of tone control made possible by modern signal processing, and a resounding argument against the tradition that nothing should come into the signal path, and certainly no tone controls.
Willem

willem
10-01-2016, 03:06 PM
I decided it was time for some experimentation with my new P3ESRs, to see what a subwoofer might contribute. I use the P3ESRs as desk top speakers in my 18 sq m study Source is my computer, into an ODAC usb DAC, then an Emotiva Control Freak (passive) volume control into a refurbished Quad 405-2 amplifier. So on the side of the electronics everything is as good as it gets, and the same applies to the speakers, within their obvious limitations. So the experiment is really about overcoming some of the inevitable size limitations of the speakers.

The first thing I did was to add my daughter's REL Quake mk 2 subwoofer. It is the kind of decent small sub that might make sense in the kind of small room that the P3ESRs would typically be used in. It did indeed add low frequencies, but it also sounded a bit woolly. Turning down the volume of the sub and lowering the crossover frequency improved things, but it is clear that the lowest frequencies are not reproduced with the same clarity as the rest.

The question is, of course, why? Is the REL sub just not very good, or was I suffering from room modes in this smallish room?

So I moved the experiment to the much larger (60 sq m) living room. In my main system I have been very successful with an obviously rather more expensive B&W PV1d subwoofer. However, there too the sound had originally been boomy and unnatural, until I added a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 dsp room equalization unit. So I installed my P3ESRs into my main system (Quad 606-2 power amplifier), with the PV1d sub, and the Antimode 8033. The sound quality was excellent: bass was tight, the soundstage was significantly bigger than without the sub, and integration with the P3ESRs was near perfect, even if there is probably still room for some improvement if I would care to adjust settings a bit.

So what if I also moved the rest of my desktop system to the much larger living room? Would it sound better in the much larger room? The answer is yes, but not enough. Bass was still a lot fuzzier than with the PV1d and room correction.

I know from earlier experience that a large part of the difference between the two subwoofer setups is probably due to the Antimode 8033, but the PV1d is probably also a rather tighter and more refined sub. The final experiment is one I did not do because I would need some different cables: add the Antimode 8033 to the system with the REL sub.

So my conclusion is that a really good and equalized subwoofer system can be a useful addition to a set of PESRs but probably at a cost that is similar to the extra expense of, say, a pair of M30.1's compared to P3ESRs.

Just adding even a small sub in a smallish room without room equalization is not a good idea.