Announcement

Collapse

HUG - here for all audio enthusiasts

The Harbeth User Group is the primary channel for public communication with Harbeth's HQ. If you have a 'scientific mind' and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - audio equipment decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual Science of Audio sub-forum area of HUG is your place. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and should be accessible to non-experts and able to be tried-out at home without deep technical knowledge. From a design perspective, today's award winning Harbeths could not have been designed any other way.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings area is you. If you are quite set in your subjectivity, then HUG is likely to be a bit too fact based for you, as many of the contributors have maximised their pleasure in home music reproduction by allowing their head to rule their heart. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area only, although HUG is really not the best place to have these sort of purely subjective airings.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters and Harbeth does not necessarily agree with the contents of any member contributions, especially in the Subjective Soundings area, and has no control over external content.

That's it! Enjoy!

{Updated Oct. 2017}
See more
See less

Moscow High End show, Nov. 2015

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Moscow High End show, Nov. 2015

    I'm Harbeth's only representative here in Mosow, and as I don't know how to use social media, unlike in Barcelona last weekend where Trevor took care of all of that live, apologies in advance.

    The show is in the Holiday Inn, south of the city centre, a large modern hotel with solid walls and good sized bedrooms which double-up as the usual demo rooms. Our distributor, Techno-M have two rooms opposite each other, one playing SHL5+ and the other, M40.2.

    I heard when in Barcelona that a recent high end show had planned for around 4000 paying public visitors, fairly typically (low) these days, down from they heyday attendances of 12000+ in the 80s. What shocked everyone, especially the accounts departments of the various exhibitors was that the actual number of visitors was one tenth the expected - just 400 or so. That is a reflection of the relevance and draw of audiophile products in hotels; worrying indeed.

    One wonders whether the concept of pulling manufacturers together in a hotel is the issue and asking the public to come see/hear or if there are better, cheaper, more effective and attractive ways to bring the public into contact with quality sound. Is social networking via the net so powerful that the public don't need to see, touch and hear, they can make purchase decisions solely based on social media comments? Considering that many, perhaps the majority of such posts are in fact the work of outsourced marketing teams, is that a real substitute? Attendance here will be interesting, but in most exhibitor's opinions, 400 serious, attentive, careful listeners are worth 10000 leaflet collectors.

    Passing through Moscow last night by taxi, I was astonished by beautiful colourful buildings - what seemed to be a unique mix of gothic, classical and Ottoman-esque, alongside more somber buildings.
    Alan A. Shaw
    Designer, owner
    Harbeth Audio UK

  • #2
    Ah, shows as was

    Since attending two audio shows in 2013 and 2014, my previous outing was the Earls Court Show in 1980. It was the largest exhibition centre in the UK at the time. It was massive - and swamped. Lots of young people (me and my mate Dave were 17 years old at the time). It was not just high end, there was sensible hifi as well, lots of it. Advertising a show as "high end" is exclusivism, which in marketing terms must be a bad thing.

    I would suggest it is not just as much the number attending that counts, but the age profile. The gender profile can be presumed.

    In contrast, a few years ago I took one of my kids and some of his mates to The Gadget Show at the Birmingham National Exhibition Centre. It was vast, incredible, lots of fun and packed out for about 4 days. According to this report, about 20,000 people per day.
    http://www.eventmagazine.co.uk/gadge...rticle/1067656

    Hope the show goes well. Room correction should be easy. If you're short of a microphone, you'll find one behind the light switch.

    Comment


    • #3
      Exposing the brand

      Originally posted by A.S. View Post
      One wonders whether the concept of pulling manufacturers together in a hotel is the issue and asking the public to come see/hear or if there are better, cheaper, more effective and attractive ways to bring the public into contact with quality sound. Is social networking via the net so powerful that the public don't need to see, touch and hear, they can make purchase decisions solely based on social media comments? Considering that many, perhaps the majority of such posts are in fact the work of outsourced marketing teams, is that a real substitute? Attendance here will be interesting, but in most exhibitor's opinions, 400 serious, attentive, careful listeners are worth 10000 leaflet collectors.
      I know little about marketing, and the pros and cons of exposing a hifi brand like Harbeth to the public, but I have said in another thread that I do not believe that hifi shows are a good way for prospective buyers to choose their speakers. It would follow that it is not a good way to maximise sales.

      If you are demo-ing a new gadget that offers something people are unaware of, then the 'show' arena may work. Where Harbeth is trying to demonstrate good sound quality speakers in an environment that does not lend itself to good sound then you are struggling.

      Maybe evolving an idea that the company Acoustic Research (AR) employed in the 60s may work. They exposed their brand by having a permanent music room set up in Grand Central station New York. People could browse and listen and be informed about the products while they had time to kill waiting for their train. I do not suggest that you copy AR who made no sale at all from the Music Room itself in the many years that The Music Room existed.

      If it were my business, I would consider starting with a dedicated 'Music Room' at Harbeth HQ. Or think about a 'pop-up' shop, or a demo in a shopping mall. I accept that a shopping mall is unlikely to provide good acoustics, but the footfall is huge and it gets the brand exposed. Another idea is a music evening in a community hall, or church with decent accoustics. I am sure the benefits and pitfalls of such a venture are more apparent to you, but you may also be able to evolve such an idea into something which may work.

      As the statistics show people are not going to hifi shows in the numbers we have seen in the past. some new ideas are needed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Parallels with cycling

        Cycle touring is another of my passions. Once a year I attend a large exhibition in the Netherlands on cycle touring and hiking holidays to give some seminars on the subject. The show draws about 20000 visitors over two days, and has a large number of commercial exhibitors, but also not for profit volunteers like myself, who are there on behalf of the Dutch cycle touring club and similar organizations.

        My seminars on cycle touring for beginners only draw about 150 people, even though the vast majority of the entire show's visitors are precisely in my target audience (older prosperous educated people who are planning to do their first tour). Most waste their time collecting leaflets from bling manufacturers. They try to make sense of the overload of information, and some try to decide rationally. Others cannot wait to buy two 3000 pound bikes for their first cycling holiday (with him trying to persuade her that this is really needed). Most have already visited their local bike shop, and have been persuaded that this will need big money. I think the parallels are remarkable.

        Comment


        • #5
          The old days

          Hi Fi Show attendance has been dropping from the heyday in the early 80s. In those days, people would have to queue to get into practically any room and the corridors were packed like sardines. It was fun, interesting and buzzing with excitement but very year since they have got less and less interesting with fewer and fewer people.

          Another thing which might affect attendance currently, is the fear of terrorism !!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Comrade, speak up

            Originally posted by ssfas View Post
            If you're short of a microphone, you'll find one behind the light switch.
            Big chuckle... love it!

            Comment


            • #7
              Cheers!

              Of all the trips I have made over the years, with the possible (delightful) culture shock of my first visit to Japan, this trip to Russia has probably been the most thought provoking. It is, frankly, a disgrace that we in the west are trapped in the George Smiley, great coats and hidden cameras of a Russia I don't see around me. I'm not so nave to deny it exists, nor to think that Moscow is typical of the vastness of Russia, nor that political ambition exists, but if and where it does does not seem to impact on ordinary family lives. This Russia is the exact opposite of the stereotype we have. The architecture is varied, fascinating and in good repair; the people are universally approachable and friendly, they are open, witty and share the same concerns about ordinary life at home and in the wider, troubled world.

              I am surrounded by 'European' architecture, culture and trappings of modern life. I am, for all intents and purposes, in Rome, London or Paris. In fact, there are more big executive cars here than in London. It is inexcusable that the west - by which I'm uncertain if I mean western politicians or western media - do not make the effort to get into the mind of the Russian, for I have been told more than once that 'We Russians may look somewhat like Europeans, but our thinking is not exactly European...'. You can appreciate that when you see so many eastern influenced orthodox churches, and you suddenly realise that the initially impenetrable written alphabet incorporates many Greek characters: Pi for example is the letter P and delta, letter d. Once you 'get' that, the jigsaw of cultural and geo-political influence drops into place.

              Alex and I walked for 19km around Moscow, according to his phone app. With stops it took some 12 hours, worth every moment. If you have a chance to come here to see the reality of modern Russia, and to better equip yourself with an understanding of this region's political sensitivities, do so, but the visa application is by far the most invasive I've experienced.

              Entertaining, self-aware, charming, engaging, bright, thoughtful, intelligent (and beautiful), I have been welcomed (I'm told that I am the only western brand representative at this show: unlikely) into a Russian family home for dinner, and a great time was had by all. English is widely spoken to an exceptionally high standard, and everything is just easy. The only stereotype that was sustained was, of course, the numerous rounds of toasting with vodka!
              Alan A. Shaw
              Designer, owner
              Harbeth Audio UK

              Comment


              • #8
                Ultimately, the consumer loses

                I had the opportunity to discuss with some audio journalists here the role that they perceived for their magazines. My specific interest was whether they considered themselves to have an educational role, to illuminate and demystify audio subjects, either at a foundation level (such as how the ear works) or at a higher level (how a DAC works).

                In summary, the answers were that 'the consumer gets the magazine he is willing to pay for. Education, indeed 'testing' is a time consuming and expensive business. if the consumer turns his back on that he will pay in the long run. He will buy products that are flawed, which he'll shortly replace. One way or another, the consumer will pay for his disinterest in objectivity....'

                Pretty honest summary I'd say.

                That led, gently, to my exploring the subject of taking care to reduce and ideally remove confounding variables from audio comparisons, of which the most important seems to be carefully matching the loudness at the ear of A and B. Probing this issue was evidently so unexpected and disturbing that it was quite uncomfortable to watch the consequences being thought through. Evidently, whole careers had been built on the sanctity and reliability of uncontrolled comparisons that level matching A ands B had never actually been considered as a concept. It hadn't been tried, rejected or dismissed as unworkable, unproven or flawed: the notion and paramount importance of arranging comparisons to get the best from the limitations of the ear just hadn't been considered by these fellows. This shines a new light on the extreme reluctance of a contributor recently here to submit to a level matched A-B comparison.

                Subsequently, it was decided that there was a general agreement amongst the journalists that there had indeed been much study of the ear but that as yet, no comprehensive model of its performance and capabilities that could be practically used to grade audio equipment, and certainly no correlation at all between measurement and listening. The collection of ever more personal biometric data via mobile devices was held out as a means by which such a model could eventually be constructed, and that seems plausible to me.

                However imperfect our understanding of the ear, and it may be one of the most studied organs in the body, we do know that it senses sound by loudness and frequency. Change either, and the sensory experience is biased, and where one is louder than the other, honest objectivity about the sonic nature of one or other difficult or even impossible to determine with certainty.

                It also seems that IC manufacturers are being discouraged, either by government or a reading of social-environment trends, to put low power consumption as a primary design objective. Thus, the days of gas guzzling class A or even AB audio equipment are numbered. I was very impressed, subjectively, with the new (Pioneer) TAD class D amp which has massive watt capability and just sips main power. I'll see if we can obtain one to give it a thorough evaluation. Not cheap, but as we've reported here before, Pioneer audio equipment is exceptionally well designed and fantastic value for money. We should be more philanthropic in our use of power. Made in Japan.
                Alan A. Shaw
                Designer, owner
                Harbeth Audio UK

                Comment


                • #9
                  Pioneer quality.

                  Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                  I was very impressed, subjectively, with the new (Pioneer) TAD class D amp which has massive watt capability and just sips main power. I'll see if we can obtain one to give it a thorough evaluation. Not cheap, but as we've reported here before, Pioneer audio equipment is exceptionally well designed and fantastic value for money. We should be more philanthropic in our use of power. Made in Japan.
                  E.g. TAD M2500 stereophonic double mono power amp, class D. Last price 23,194 EUR. Actually true Japanese relation of price/quality and eco philanthropy.

                  ATB

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ABX comparator switchbox and less expensive Class D amp from Pioneer

                    Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                    That led, gently, to my exploring the subject of taking care to reduce and ideally remove confounding variables from audio comparisons, of which the most important seems to be carefully matching the loudness at the ear of A and B. Probing this issue was evidently so unexpected and disturbing that it was quite uncomfortable to watch the consequences being thought through. Evidently, whole careers had been built on the sanctity and reliability of uncontrolled comparisons that level matching A ands B had never actually been considered as a concept. It hadn't been tried, rejected or dismissed as unworkable, unproven or flawed: the notion and paramount importance of arranging comparisons to get the best from the limitations of the ear just hadn't been considered by these fellows. This shines a new light on the extreme reluctance of a contributor recently here to submit to a level matched A-B comparison.
                    Do you suppose that they'd be interested in experimenting with this product?
                    http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?opt...271&Itemid=238

                    Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                    I was very impressed, subjectively, with the new (Pioneer) TAD class D amp which has massive watt capability and just sips main power. I'll see if we can obtain one to give it a thorough evaluation. Not cheap, but as we've reported here before, Pioneer audio equipment is exceptionally well designed and fantastic value for money. We should be more philanthropic in our use of power. Made in Japan.
                    The Pioneer-TAD amp might be fine as a cost-no-object solution - or if you need to drive the 40.2 - but it might be overkill for most users.

                    However, some Pioneer "consumer grade" integrated amplifiers do feature Class D power amplifiers.
                    See the A-70DA and A-50DA: http://www.pioneer-audiovisual.eu/eu/p_productlists/91
                    The outgoing A-70, which differs from the current version mainly in the input DAC section, appears to still be available for about 650.
                    One caveat, though, in that it's assembled in China.
                    According to the following test report, this amp can generate about 100W continuous into a 6Ω load and about 150W on peaks, sufficient to meet the maximum power limits for most Harbeth speakers.
                    http://www.pioneer.eu/files/stereo20...D-50Review.pdf

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Analogue Devices Hybrid

                      Originally posted by pkwba View Post
                      E.g. TAD M2500 stereophonic double mono power amp, class D. Last price 23,194 EUR. Actually true Japanese relation of price/quality and eco philanthropy.

                      ATB
                      I use a Analogue Digital Hybrid Integrated amp. it uses a class D amplifier for current-dumping coupled with an Class A main amplifier. It also integrates the DAC circuit within the Class A amplifier circuit. Comes at a significantly lower price. Delivers 200 wpc at 8 ohms

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Let's frighten the kids....

                        Originally posted by SChat View Post
                        I use a Analogue Digital Hybrid Integrated amp. it uses a class D amplifier for current-dumping coupled with an Class A main amplifier. It also integrates the DAC circuit within the Class A amplifier circuit. Comes at a significantly lower price. Delivers 200 wpc at 8 ohms
                        That sounds very interesting. Can we have a link?

                        Once again, at the Moscow show, we see dedicated specialist audio distributors knocking themselves senseless with hard work against a cultural tide that by and large "thinks high-end audio means an iPhone...".

                        Harbeth is just one tiny irrelevant brand in a shrinking economic market that like a red dwarf price-explodes before collapsing into itself. As we see at so many shows, visitors are almost exclusively male, 50+ and struggle to take away any meaningful impression about equipment from demonstrations in the abominable acoustics of untreated box rooms. What did surprise me, but I was told this second hand, that visitors were unconcerned by the often overwhelming bass around the show (culprit: the rooms) and had actually asked various exhibitors if they could turn-up the already very generous bass, esp. on their favourite 70s rock tracks.

                        Once again, to my ears, I'm sorry to say that without exception, vinyl systems sounded greatly lacking in high frequency energy as has been reported here by me before (Hamburg). Without exception, to my ears, all the digital rooms, CD or streaming, sounded alive and detailed, a fresh, credible sound. I can see with my own eyes that there is a certain niche for vinyl, and I can understand the whole nostalgia business, but I don't understand why the subjectively rolled-off top end and warmed-up bottom end can call itself 'high fidelity'.

                        Vinyl can be hugely satisfying as we know as a gadget, but surely it does no one any favours to mix those entirely valid emotional cues with the medium as a very imperfect carrier of audio information. Quite the opposite: the sheer size, complexity and dust-trap potential of exposed turntables (as opposed to my Thorns TD125 in SME plinth with perplex lid) acts as a positive disincentive to women, who in every conceivable case would opt for a $50 Google Chromecast audio pod in preference, with no benefit whatever to the long term survival of specialist audio. Another positive disincentive to encourage young people into quality audio.

                        Vinyl is clearly in retreat. Despite the eye watering and much needed profit margins it offers, it's self-evident that its moment has come (no comments on piffling vinyl sales please: a record bazaar was adjacent my bedroom and I now know all I need to know about the demographics of that game). By far and away the most musically satisfying demos were of digital media (iPad streamers actually) driving powerful digital amps. So let's celebrate what vinyl can do for us on an emotional, tangible, tactile level and not what it can't do for us due to insurmountable technical limitations of its 10 cent media.

                        Can there be a better example of an industry cannibalising its own children?

                        Please support your local dealer. He literally, economically lives or dies on your willingness to spend out on quality audio. Don't be led by the media; get out to your dealers and listen, listen and listen more. Make up your own mind - have the courage to be man, not a reader statistic pulled this way and that for someone else's benefit.
                        Alan A. Shaw
                        Designer, owner
                        Harbeth Audio UK

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Times they are a changing

                          Both my children (18 and 15) are music nuts, my elder son particularly, goes to gigs and festivals all the time. He was down from University this weekend and we went record shopping. He was also down two weeks ago, tragically, to go to Eagles of Death Metal's London gig, a few days before they went to Paris.

                          We went to Flashback Records, a small chain of record stores (with more branches than Virgin and Our Price put together). It was buzzing with people. It was a bit of bonding, partly motivated by it coming from my wallet. It transpires that students cannot afford to go to the cinema. 12+ for a ticket is way over their budget for a night out, before food and drink. When he went to Uni I bought him an audio system for 600 (he took 300 records with him) on the basis that he would give it to his brother in 3 or 4 years time. He thought this was a massive waste of money (he's changed his mind). He has a very nice and cheap vintage system at home, but there was no room for it in the car. However, he saved every penny for years to get his own guitar at age 13, saved for several more, and had no issue with me getting a hand-made bespoke guitar for his 18th birthday (compensated by a scholarship). It cost as much as a decent audio system, the difference being it is a thing of beauty and will last a lifetime. I doubt the idea of saving for an improved audio system has ever crossed his mind. The idea of going to an audio show would be met with incredulity. My other son listens to music directly from his computer.

                          The moral is that I do not see my kids have any desire for hi-fidelity audio. They enjoy music in their own ways, voraciously. The main problem is that they are unlikely to have the disposable income to afford spending the sort of money that sustains the rapidly shrinking audio retail market. When they hopefully do have the money, they will probably have different priorities. They are more likely to get their first hi-fidelity system by inheritance.

                          Because of the lack of record stores, digital distribution and iPhones, the whole teenage social culture of buying and listening to music has largely disappeared. My elder son, his girlfriend and his mates do go record shopping socially, but they all have very basic audio systems or use their dad's system (if he has one).

                          It should also be remembered that when domestic audio boomed 90 years ago (the first electric recording was by the Victor label in 1925, Cortot playing Chopin), most equipment was DIY. That was probably killed off by the solid state revolution, so audio DIY as a hobby has largely disappeared.

                          However, I see the biggest problem is distribution. We have discussed the cost of good 150w Japanese amps costing 300 or 400. The manufacturers and retailers are making minuscule profits even with incredible efficiencies of scale. So why would anyone want to buy an amplifier from a local company that is inefficient to start with, has to make 40% profit margin to cover overheads, the distributor needs 20% for marketing and profit and the retailer another 30% to 40%? It seems totally unsustainable to me. There used to be audio stores and camera stores on every High Street - no more. The camera business has survived online, but with globally much reduced sales. Frankly, I am amazed how many consumer audio brands still operate.

                          I used to shop at a small quality chain of stores. 15 years ago they had about 20 High Street units selling audio, AV and cameras. They then went online, gradually closed all the stores and opened a couple of out-of-town warehouses. They then expanded into domestic appliances. Last May they gave up on audio, AV and cameras altogether and now only sell appliances, mostly online. People need ovens and fridges, they clearly don't need hi-fidelity.

                          Apparently it's called progress.

                          p.s. Saw a good play the other day about the creation of the Glyndebourne Opera, which is only 30 minutes from Harbeth HQ in deepest Sussex. It may soon be transferring to the West End. For anyone within reach of London, may be worth looking out for. It's a remarkable story I knew nothing about.
                          http://www.theguardian.com/stage/201...avid-hare-play

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Making audio hardware invisible

                            Originally posted by A.S. View Post

                            Vinyl is clearly in retreat. Despite the eye watering and much needed profit margins it offers, it's self-evident that its moment has come (no comments on piffling vinyl sales please: a record bazaar was adjacent my bedroom and I now know all I need to know about the demographics of that game). By far and away the most musically satisfying demos were of digital media (iPad streamers actually) driving powerful digital amps. So let's celebrate what vinyl can do for us on an emotional, tangible, tactile level and not what it can't do for us due to insurmountable technical limitations of its 10 cent media.

                            Can there be a better example of an industry cannibalising its own children?

                            Please support your local dealer. He literally, economically lives or dies on your willingness to spend out on quality audio. Don't be led by the media; get out to your dealers and listen, listen and listen more. Make up your own mind - have the courage to be man, not a reader statistic pulled this way and that for someone else's benefit.
                            I think the days of the typical altar with shiny electronics in the middle, flanked by two large speakers as priests of the cult may well be over. The success of Sonos points to what many consumers really want, and are happy to pay quite a bit for: unobtrusive easy to use gear that matches their on line existence. They are done with discs, and they are done with shiny boxes with electronics. And they are quite happy to spend on such lifestyle products. In many respects I must agree with them.

                            I have said it before, but my ideal system would be invisible apart from the inevitable speakers. Cast from s small tablet and from any smartphone in the family, electronics invisibly tucked away but turning on automatically when a stream is cast. Currently, the only unit that could not be tucked away would be the (UHD) BD player, but I am sure it is easy enough to have a very small standalone unit placed where it would be convenient, and connected by wifi to the rest of the system. Ideally, the speakers should be invisible as well, but stuck flat against the wall would be an acceptable compromise for many (and wirelessly connected without messy cables), just like the large flat screen tv stuck against the wall. Since we here know that the room is so important, the system should have more or less automatic room equalization.

                            None of this has much to do with obtaining the very best in audio quality, but it does not block that goal either. I am sure there is a market for something like a Sonos system, but with much better sound.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The super rich concept of super audio

                              Originally posted by willem View Post
                              I think the days of the typical altar with shiny electronics in the middle, flanked by two large speakers as priests of the cult may well be over. The success of Sonos points to what many consumers really want, and are happy to pay quite a bit for: unobtrusive easy to use gear that matches their on line existence. They are done with discs, and they are done with shiny boxes with electronics. And they are quite happy to spend on such lifestyle products. In many respects I must agree with them.

                              I have said it before, but my ideal system would be invisible apart from the inevitable speakers. Cast from s small tablet and from any smartphone in the family, electronics invisibly tucked away but turning on automatically when a stream is cast. Currently, the only unit that could not be tucked away would be the (UHD) BD player, but I am sure it is easy enough to have a very small standalone unit placed where it would be convenient, and connected by wifi to the rest of the system. Ideally, the speakers should be invisible as well, but stuck flat against the wall would be an acceptable compromise for many (and wirelessly connected without messy cables), just like the large flat screen tv stuck against the wall. Since we here know that the room is so important, the system should have more or less automatic room equalization.

                              None of this has much to do with obtaining the very best in audio quality, but it does not block that goal either. I am sure there is a market for something like a Sonos system, but with much better sound.
                              Willem, I have the perfect example for you. Chap I was at the Glyndebourne theatre show the other day is a property developer and he built the most expensive terrace of houses in London. I went to the launch of one. They are fitted out with everything imaginable, from the artworks to milk in the fridge, which you would expect for the price. The "Media Room" fits your description exactly, with Sonos installed. So for 40 million you don't even get a decent pair of speakers. iPads everywhere.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X