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Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

HUG has two approaches to contributor's Posts. If you have, like us, a scientific mind and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual area of HUG is for you. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and can be easily understood and tried with negligible technical knowledge.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings sub-forum is you. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters regarding what appears here. That said, very few Posts are rejected. HUG Moderation individually spell and layout checks Posts for clarity but due to the workload, Posts in the Subjective Soundings area, from Oct. 2016 will not be. We regret that but we are unable to accept Posts that present what we consider to be free advertising for products that Harbeth does not make.

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{Updated Nov. 2016A}
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UK hifi shows and exhibitions

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  • #16
    The recording hall, the home listening room

    Originally posted by GregD View Post
    One thing that's been bugging me at hi-fi shows this and last year, is how frustrating it is to be sitting in a demo room 6ft from the component you are keen to buy and hearing it playing the 'music', but seemingly because the room is so unfamiliar to you, all you hear is a pretty unpleasant mess that tells you nothing about the (possible!) sound of the component. Our brain seems to adjust to our room over time and that feels like 'reality' to us eventually. Hear a system in a different room we're not used to and...
    We've talked about room treatment frequently here on the HUG. As you say, the listening room messes-up even the finest audio equipment. The best listening room I have ever been in (in Java, Indonesia actually) was both very large (the size of a tennis court) and very well damped. That allowed the speakers to breath and what I heard was 90% speakers 10% room. Contrast that with typical untreated domestic rooms where (a guess) 40% speaker and 60% room.

    Let's take a step backwards and consider what we're trying to achieve when listening at home. The objective we audio fans promote is of 'closing the gap', 'the closest approach to reality', 'concert hall realism' and similar. And how about the recording end of the chain? Physically what recording engineers do is to arrange a few (perhaps only two!) microphones in front of the performers and press the record button. You know yourself that when you attend a live (unamplified, natural sound) concert you can choose to sit anywhere from the first row ground floor right up to the furthest corner in the top row (what we call 'sitting in the gods'). Wherever you sit the sound will be a little or a lot different. And if you are a musician or a stage hand, you'll be in or behind the orchestra hearing another different sound as will the conductor immersed right at the front of the orchestra.

    Imagine you attended the rehearsals and the orchestra invited you to move freely around in the hall as they played, seeking what you consider to be the best seat. You'd probably start somewhere near the front - perhaps five or six rows back - and then just for curiosity see what it sound like near the back and then to the side and upstairs. You would be sampling the sound of the orchestra in the hall. What does sampling imply? It implies that you are going to take a guess that experiencing the sound in just a few semi-randomly selected seats that you could draw valid conclusions about the characteristics of a larger group - in this case, the sonic signature of the entire hall. For example, if you first picked seat 5K you could probably assume that 5F to 5P would have a very similar sound.... and possible even deduce that 6F-6P or even 7F to 7P would sound broadly the same. So, out of all the hundreds of seats in the hall, you could probably make life easy for yourself and only experience or sample maybe 20 seats from which you would draw conclusions of the whole hall.

    Now let's think about the microphones themselves. As noted above, as you moved around the hall you were sampling the sound using your own ears and brain. The recording engineer picks a handful of microphones and places them at various distances and heights from the musicians to capture the sound at those points in 3D space. The microphone is a pressure sensitive device with typically a diaphragm (the sound sensing part) of about 25sq mm (1 sq. inch). The engineer places those few microphones to sample the entire 3D sound output generated by the performers. It's surely obvious that the selection and positioning of the mics is critical and at best yields nothing more than an impression of the sound waves at just a few square inches of acoustic space over the surface of a huge expanding sonic sound bubble that radiates away from the performers. The resulting microphones therefore capture a woefully inadequate microcosm of the entire performance + acoustic, but it's the best we can do with current technology.- and it's cheap and simple.

    So that recording is then replayed in a room. Let's assume that just two microphones were used (left and right channels) and that they drive the left and right speakers. The speaker cones act like microphones in reverse and they pump out sound into the room, reversing the process by which sound from the musicians pressed onto the microphone diaphragms. It must be obvious that the resulting sound as it fills the room is merely what those two, one square inch diaphragms detected at two, one square inch points in space, only a minute sample of the entire balloon of sound generated by the musicians. And yet, that tiny sample is blown-up by the speakers and fill the listening room in three dimensions with sound. But the listening room full of sound bears no resemblance to the 3D sound stage of the performance - it can't be expected to as all the speakers are given to reproduce is a tiny sample of the sound, at the microphone diaphragms, in the recording venue.

    It should be clear that the entire business of reproducing stereophonic sound at home is a psychoacoustic trick. And a trick that luckily humans fall willingly into. Ideally, there would be more microphones sampling more points (ideally an infinite number of points) in and around the performers in 3D. And ideally each mic would record a discrete channel of sound to be reproduced over its own dedicated loudspeaker. But if the room so readily screws-up the sound of two speakers struggling to faithfully reproduce the sound of just two points in space, can you imagine the acoustic mess that multiple speakers would generate in the untreated room?

    A few posts ago we heard what the mono microphone sampled as the sound of speakers in the untreated listening room - and we have to be very realistic about the degree of fidelity that can be achieved at home without attention to the room treatment. So in my view, to spend serious money on tweaks, cables and the like but to leave the room untreated is chasing the wrong objective.

    See for yourself how a handful of microphones are expected to sample the entire acoustic space of EMI's Abbey Road studio here.
    Alan A. Shaw
    Designer, owner
    Harbeth Audio UK

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    • #17
      Ambiophonice, ambiosonics and 5.1

      Originally posted by A.S. View Post
      Ideally, there would be more microphones sampling more points (ideally an infinite number of points) in and around the performers in 3D.
      ...or one Soundfield Microphone. While this system isn't entirely the total answer to all recording problems, it comes close! Of course, like any microphone, the skill is in placing it correctly to obtain the required result. But having done so, it offers a flexibility and degree of control like no other. See this page for more details of the Soundfield Mic and what it can offer.

      Have we ever discussed Ambisonics here? Suffice it to say that this is the technique that should have been adopted for surround sound instead of the 5.1 nonsense that Hollywood (and its implicit partner, Dolby) foisted upon us. Tetrahedral Ambiophony, as Ambisonics is sometimes known, is a surround technique which endeavours to reproduce the entire sound field at the point of capture, in all three dimensions. A minimum of four loudspeakers (but ideally rather more) are required, of which some need to be elevated so that the third dimension can be reproduced; a technique termed periphony. Take a good look at this BBC R&D page and watch the truly excellent video.

      Comment


      • #18
        Getting a good sound at a public hifi show ...

        Would I be correct in saying that the last time Harbeth exhibited at the Bristol show was 2005?

        I remember it particularly because it was the first hifi show of any kind that I had been to. The Harbeth room was one of the first we visited and after the 2 or 3 people who were there had finished listening I asked Alan whether he would play some selections from the CDs that I had brought. He duly went and shut the door (as the corridor was already noisy even early on the Friday) and we spent the next 15-20 minutes listening to what I had brought.

        The system was, I believe, M30s with Sugden CDP and amp.

        My memory is that I could have quite happily listened to it all day - but that it didn't stand out in any particular way.

        Do I have any memory of what else I heard on that day? - none at all; and six years later what am I listening to? - Harbeths. So they must have made some kind of positive impression!

        Several questions proceed from that and what has been said in this thread:

        The most common reason for poor sound at shows that I see put forward is to blame the rooms; listening to the commentary above this suggestion is indeed put forward but then refuted and reasons given.

        Going back to 2005, I don't recall a significant amount of room treatment in the Harbeth room, would Alan remember if much was done to the room and further whether he found it particularly difficult to achieve a sound that he was happy with?

        Secondly, this thread started with a suggestion about what may be 'the sound of 2011' - that there may be a pervasive trend towards toning down the top end of systems and that in doing so the 'sparkle' and 'musical engagement' has been diminished. The view put forward in the commentary is that this is not down to the rooms at Bristol.

        Another request of Alan I'm afraid: if you were given a room at the show today could you take along a pair of Harbeths and doctor them such that they resembled what you heard last week? Without actually substituting different drivers would it be possible to adjust the crossover so that the sound fell in line with the 'sound of 2011'.

        The reason I ask is simply to get a better understanding of where the the 'sparkle' and 'musical engagement' are located sonically.

        Having been to this show a number of times since 2005 I have some idea of it's overall sound (generally too loud for a start) but not the particular sound this year as I didn't go.

        Comment


        • #19
          Pandering to the masses?

          Originally posted by weaver View Post
          Another request of Alan I'm afraid: if you were given a room at the show today could you take along a pair of Harbeths and doctor them such that they resembled what you heard last week? Without actually substituting different drivers would it be possible to adjust the crossover so that the sound fell in line with the 'sound of 2011'
          Why on earth would Alan ever even consider this? Pandering to some strange perception of "this year's sound" is the surest way of throwing years of reputation building straight down the pan.

          Reputations that have taken years to build can be destroyed in a near-instant.

          Comment


          • #20
            How to make a speaker sound unimpressive! Possible?

            Sorry no, that was not the point of my question.

            Alan has, for example, described how it is possible to make a speaker sound 'impressive' in an A-B demo; I was simply asking if he could explain in a similar way how (or even if) a speaker could be 'dumbed down' - I wasn't for one moment suggesting it as a commercial proposition!
            Last edited by weaver; 02-03-2011, 05:54 PM. Reason: sp

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            • #21
              Blaming the Show rooms - or accepting unfamiliarity with them

              Originally posted by weaver View Post
              The most common reason for poor sound at shows that I see put forward is to blame the rooms...
              My comments about the rooms at the show relate to how unfamiliarity with them leads to a lot of difficulty assessing - in any meaningful way - the sound of the electronics being shown. As Alan states earlier, the average domestic living room will contribute 60% to the sound heard. The speakers another 40%. That doesn't leave any room for equipment sound but I assume they are rough figures.

              If the 'untreated' rooms at the show were contributing 60% to the sound and the rolled-off speakers the other 40% I think we can say that the sound at the show was that of blurry, unfamiliar rooms and speakers voiced with some kind of fashionable agenda in mind. Listening to Alan's recording through headphones confirms this for me.

              Of course, the unfamiliarity makes the room seem blurry and unpleasant to us. There are too many reflections that are unlike our own listening rooms. But spend a few weeks living in the hotel and I'm sure our brain's would adjust to the acoustic just like we have done at home.

              That doesn't mean any room will do as long as you get used to it. The advice to damp the room well will still get a much better result, with less room sound, more speaker sound. I was surprised at the relative lack of damping/treatment in most rooms at Bristol. Some seem to think that damping a room sucks the life out of the music - maybe this is why they build dull-sounding speakers. I'd rather use well-balanced speakers (Harbeth) in a well-damped room than dull speakers in a lively room. And results would surely be a lot more consistent too.

              Comment


              • #22
                Reviewing the show experience (1)

                Originally posted by weaver View Post
                ...Another request of Alan I'm afraid: if you were given a room at the show today could you take along a pair of Harbeths and doctor them such that they resembled what you heard last week? Without actually substituting different drivers would it be possible to adjust the crossover so that the sound fell in line with the 'sound of 2011'. The reason I ask is simply to get a better understanding of where the the 'sparkle' and 'musical engagement' are located sonically.
                I've been mentally toying with these types of questions in my mind for the last few days. There is a great temptation to clutch at 'solutions' or remedies based on what could be inaccurate observations on my part. So I've been trying to drag up from my audio memory as much of the show experience as I can recall. Just as I start to work-up some sort of theory or at least explanation for what I heard, I recall an experience there which doesn't neatly fit the nascent theory. So the theory is just downright wrong. A theory needs to explain every similar observation not just the ones we conveniently want to explain away.

                So, "a few steps backwards" as I often say! Let's review the 'facts' or at least, what purport to be honest factual observations. Let's assume (a very good starting point) that if we look closely at those 'facts' we'll see an inconsistency in observation which drives a cart and horses through our grand theory.

                1) I and P stepped off the cold street (about 8 degs C) into the warm, bustling hotel.
                2) We were bombarded with sound from all directions plus normal to loud conversations talking over the music
                3) We made our way by lift or stairs to about the 2nd floor sampling most rooms playing audio
                4) The rooms were hot and stuffy. They were generally crowded. The entrance passageway was often choked and we could only gain admission when others departed.
                5) Most rooms had soft chairs, curtain drapes covering most wall surfaces (to improve the cosmetics and project a corporate colour scheme)
                6) The speakers were generally facing the entrance passageway
                7) The selection of music varied from room to room
                8) It was not expected from previous experience of hotel shows that the bass or lower midrange performance in such rooms would sound great - bass/lower mid issues were generally present and not especially troubling
                9) Nothing sounded like real musicians in the room playing for the audience - this would have been an unrealistic expectation
                10) Most rooms played far too loud. This was necessary to attract visitors and a volume war was the result. Exhibitors were reluctant to close the door to reduce external noise
                11) Demo rooms that played (acoustic) music at a normal appropriate domestic level sounded quiet to the point of inaudibility
                12) In such quiet rooms, a considerable effort of willpower and act of faith on the part of the visitor was needed to acclimatise to a replay loudness many decibels below the average for the show. Several minutes were required to begin to hear any detail at all - the initial impression was of a tiny transistor-radio like sound solely because the ear had been bombarded in other rooms
                13) The impression formed after the first few rooms that there was a inadequate amount of 'sparkle'. P pointed out that certain bell and high hat sounds on familiar recordings seemed to be completely missing
                14) I was aware of the typical cone-coloration-darkness of tone which standard drivers - no matter how pretty or expensive - inevitably suffer from.

                So that's for starters. What do we make of that? Where have my observations failed me?

                As you can see, setting aside the bass and midrange performance which are always a little or a lot sub-optimal in a normal room, the two real issues are to do with the upper middle/presence region and the top end.

                As to what I would do to down-spec a pair of Harbeths to give a similar generic sound at the show I would deliberately set the tweeter a couple of dBs lower than normal, roll off the top with a filter starting at about 7kHz or so, and I'd either glue or staple an empty cotton pillowcase over the bass/midrange driver or I'd punch a hole in the speaker's frequency response (by disturbing the crossover) at around the crossover frequency. That would introduce the darkness of tone which is so very typical of hifi speakers using standard drive units. I'd take care not to cover the tweeter, so that the overall effect is of a roughly normal bass and midrange, a depressed presence region with dull harmonics and transients but the illusion of upper detail from the tweeter. Avoiding this sonic darkness issue is really at the heart of why we don't use bought-in bog standard cones. I've tried my best to explain why we are so certain that the fundamental character of a speaker can be no better than the bass/mid cone material here and here before, but it's one of those things you have to experience yourself to really appreciate. The electrifying shock comes from reverting back to the conventional speaker technology after an hour or two with the Harbeth sound. I very much doubt that anyone would willingly wish to remain in a dank sonic dungeon when they have breathed fresh air in the sunlight.
                Alan A. Shaw
                Designer, owner
                Harbeth Audio UK

                Comment


                • #23
                  Shows, arriving early to listen and equipment partnering

                  Many thanks for the reply Alan, that's exactly the sort of detail I was after.

                  the two real issues are to do with the upper middle/presence region and the top end
                  Given that you (the two of you) noted some particular difference this year, it struck me that although we are aware of the benefits of Harbeth's RADIAL driver it's not something that any other manufacturer has ever had; the qualities of that driver will have been missing from other speakers all along (ie. in previous years). This situation may have been exacerbated by other factors this year though.

                  I may have read a little too much into what you are saying, but I think there is a suggestion that the way shows (or this particular show at least) are conducted at present is a major contributory factor here; which is to say that even in those rooms where a 'good' sound may have been heard, the cumulative effect of the rest of the environment was such that much of the quality was lost.

                  To return to my experience as a visitor, if there is anything I specifically want to hear I try to get there as soon as the doors open. I hadn't yet realised how important this was when I visited the Harbeth room in 2005, but having made a mental note to return later in the day, by the time 'later' arrived I don't think I was in a fit state to listen to anything properly.

                  Coming back to the 'grand theory' (by which I assume we are talking about a possible 'sound of 2011') it is fair to say that fashions in audio do change over the years and that similarly the goals of audio manufacturers may change along with them.

                  Would it be fair to say that for the past 30 years Harbeth has had a consistent goal, that it has known what it wants to do and has stuck to those aims?

                  One last illustration from my own experience: the UK company that I bought an amp and CD player from getting on for ten years ago had a reputation for clear, detailed sound (according to people who liked them) or somewhat forward and bright (to those who didn't). When I first saw them at a show they were using speakers that had a similar reputation with the result that if you liked it, you really liked it, but if you didn't it re-affirmed your dislike.

                  Some years later they switched to a different brand of speaker and when I asked why I was told that the feedback from dealers was that this was what a lot of customers were in fact partnering the equipment with. Now, there may well be other commercial factors behind such a switch, but the effect was to 'tone down' the presentation at the show - in my view a sensible thing to do as I had been finding the demonstrations a bit much even though I already owned items from the brand.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Fatigue at shows - and in recording

                    Originally posted by weaver View Post
                    ...Given that you (the two of you) noted some particular difference this year, it struck me that although we are aware of the benefits of Harbeth's RADIAL driver it's not something that any other manufacturer has ever had; the qualities of that driver will have been missing from other speakers all along (ie. in previous years). This situation may have been exacerbated by other factors this year though....
                    As mentioned, it is many years since we exhibited at the Bristol show. Someone suggested we were there in 2005 - I very much doubt it but I may be wrong. I thought it was at least ten, possibly twelve years ago. It certainly seems a long time. So what we don't know is ....
                    1. Is my general unfamiliarity with (UK) hifi shows a factor?
                    2. Is there something particular about UK hifi shows or this specific show?
                    3. Have there actually been 'cultural' changes in the sound heard at (UK) hifi shows since I last looked-in
                    4. Am I going deaf?!

                    I caution you about drawing valid conclusions from what was just a few hours immersion. I absolutely do not like being in small, hot, noisy claustrophobic spaces and I'm sure that my ears were fatigued within minutes.

                    Incidentally, I enquired about the unusually poor sound on a big, live TV show recently. The explanation was that mid week the entire experienced (read: older) production/sound mixing team had been replaced at the producer's demand. The new young sound team had worked enthusiastically without sleep for 36 hours. When they proudly handed over their mixes they were extremely bass light to the point of being unbroadcastable. The chief sound engineer - a wise old bird who guessed what had transpired - did his best rescue job on the mix but it still sounded odd. Listening exposure at loud levels results in fatigue which skews ones perception of what sounds 'right'. The sort of sound levels at the show were far, far higher than we would normally experience at home. This could effect any part of the sonic spectrum, not only the bass end. It is, after all, a protective mechanism in the ear which turns-on as nature intended.
                    Alan A. Shaw
                    Designer, owner
                    Harbeth Audio UK

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      On or Off Axis?

                      Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                      I caution you about drawing valid conclusions from what was just a few hours immersion. I absolutely do not like being in small, hot, noisy claustrophobic spaces and I'm sure that my ears were fatigued within minutes......
                      Did you get a chance to judge the speakers sitting at the sweet spot? I find some speakers are highly directional so much so if you are more than 30 degrees off axis the highs disappear.

                      ST

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        'Am I going deaf?' and adequate sound at hifi shows ....

                        'Am I going deaf ? ' is something I sometimes ask myself when auditioning new speakers. I am always on the hunt for new, good product but for me, there are precious few good speakers on the market. My reality check comes when customers agree with my opinions about the sound.

                        As for the Shows, it's many years since I have heard decent sounds at a Show and I mean 'decent' not good or great.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The unfamiliarity of ..... everything

                          Originally posted by hifi_dave View Post
                          'Am I going deaf ? ' is something I sometimes ask myself when auditioning new speakers. I am always on the hunt for new, good product but for me, there are precious few good speakers on the market. My reality check comes when customers agree with my opinions about the sound.

                          As for the Shows, it's many years since I have heard decent sounds at a Show and I mean 'decent' not good or great.
                          Ummmm.

                          Did you get a chance to judge the speakers sitting at the sweet spot? I find some speakers are highly directional so much so if you are more than 30 degrees off axis the highs disappear
                          I made a bit of an effort and yes, you are right that one should try and judge listning on axis at the sweet spot. But even though I didn't often sit down (couldn't, room too full) even standing, my hand held mic was intentionally aimed at the tweeter of the nearest speaker.

                          You know, in the days when we did exhibit (an who knows, we may again in the UK) over three or four days you osberve all sorts of interesting comments from visitors. The most interesting ones are those they make to each other, when arriving as a listening team. Earlier in this tread we noted how the rooms distrurb the sound of even the finest equipment. Somone noted that the unfamiliarity of the room combined with the unfamilarity of the system (and music) mean that to draw valid conclusions is unwise - by all means build a shortlist but then go and verify that with a listenings session at your dealers.

                          There is one comment that I've heard a few times and it completely baffles me. A guest will arrive, completely ignore the speakers and cast a long critical or approving eye over the electronics and the speaker cable. Then, based on ten seconds of listening to unfamiliar music in an unfamiliar room with 'invisible' speakers announce to his chum or the audience or staff that 'Ah ha! I thought so! I could tell from standing in the corridor that they were using XYZ brand amp and ABC brand speaker cable! See - I'm right ....'. Should I play along or just zip it?! We were never sure if it was intended to be serious.

                          The point was well made earlier that humans are remarkably adept at acclimatising to sensory input. We can adjust to just about anything, even persistent pain. That alone explains why there are so many choices of audio equipement, to suit all tastes. And that must be a good thing. There is no such thing as a perfect loudspeaker, but there is a good choice for your room, your tastes and your personal definition of the 'being there' experience.
                          Alan A. Shaw
                          Designer, owner
                          Harbeth Audio UK

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Grab them freebies!

                            When manning rooms at various Hi-Fi shows over the years, I have observed that approx 50% of the visitors to the rooms take a cursory glance at the equipment then dive at the brochures. These they carefully stuff into the freebie plastic carrier bag with hundreds of other leaflets and off they go to the next room to grab some more goodies.

                            They are far more interested in the brochures than they are in listening to the equipment.

                            It's a man thing !!!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Room correction .... the room is so important ...

                              One of the many things I've learned from the HUG (and from this thread) is the critical importance of the room to the final sound, whether it's at home or in a concert hall. It's one of those points that doesn't seem to be discussed a great deal amongst audiophiles, but seems completely obvious and self-evident once you "get it" (or have had it properly explained to you).

                              That being so, I wonder if this would be something that Harbeth could incorporate into its plans for the future. Is there a way to offer a room analysis product at a sensible price, which would be complementary to and synergistic with specific Harbeth products? Maybe a software package, maybe a module built into a Harbeth integrated amplifier, maybe something else?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                DSP and self-strangulation

                                Originally posted by EricW View Post
                                One of the many things I've learned from the HUG (and from this thread) is the critical importance of the room to the final sound, whether it's at home or in a concert hall. It's one of those points that doesn't seem to be discussed a great deal amongst audiophiles, but seems completely obvious and self-evident once you "get it" (or have had it properly explained to you).

                                That being so, I wonder if this would be something that Harbeth could incorporate into its plans for the future. Is there a way to offer a room analysis product at a sensible price, which would be complementary to and synergistic with specific Harbeth products? Maybe a software package, maybe a module built into a Harbeth integrated amplifier, maybe something else?
                                Well, you've reminded me of some experiments we made last year with such a system. The results that surprised the demonstrators who brought it here and had hauled it around numerous other speaker companies in Europe was not the room and it's correction (it's rather live by comparison with many 'professional' listening rooms) but by how little digital correction was needed with the Harbeth speakers (P3ESR and M40.1 as I recall). They checked several times that the system was actually engaged and doing its DSP room correction. The difference in/out was small. That is, it was small untill you switched back and forth twenty times (using a foot switch, no sonic break) when you finally 'got' the difference. They concluded that it was something to do with the superiority of the RADIAL cone material: they'd heard massive in/out differences elsewhere.

                                So it can be made to work. But do you think after the crushing defeat I suffered here last year over the amp (which resulted in moderation bing turned on) that I'm going to put my head in that noose again? Not bleeding likely!
                                Alan A. Shaw
                                Designer, owner
                                Harbeth Audio UK

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