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Harbeth Monitor 30 domestic specific

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  • #16
    Setting up M30 with subwoofer

    I would like to integrate my new M30s with a subwoofer pair I'm constructing. I plan to use the TacT2.2X to implement a digital xover as well as room correction for the system. Would you please offer advice on what xover frequency and slope(s) you would recommend? I would also be grateful for any other advice you could offer about setup.

    The subwoofers are each comprised of two TCsounds TC9 powered 15" drivers in a 6 cu. ft. sealed box and powered by (up to) 2400 watt amplifiers. Thanks,

    Gregory

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Setting up M30 with subwoofer

      Originally posted by gregoryt
      I would like to integrate my new M30s with a subwoofer pair I'm constructing. I plan to use the TacT2.2X to implement a digital xover as well as room correction for the system. Would you please offer advice on what xover frequency and slope(s) you would recommend? I would also be grateful for any other advice you could offer about setup.

      Gregory
      Hi Gregory,

      I hope the designer doesn't mind a stray comment from another user. I use a TacT 2.2x with M30s and a pair of dipole Gradient sw-63 woofers (designed for Quads). The crossover setting is 200hz, 4th order (the actual -6db point will be lower than 200hz; you can see this on the TacT screen). One review of the 2.2x says not to go higher than 4th order so as to avoid ringing, particularly if you don't always center yourself between the speakers. (You can find the Hi-fi News review on the TacT website, I think.) But not everyone agrees, and your situation may well be different.

      Edward

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      • #18
        Re: Setting up M30 with subwoofer

        Edward,

        Thanks for your reply. I had supposed that 200HZ might be a suitable xover point since I'm told that the M40's cross over from the bass to midrange is at 200HZ. I did expect to have to experiment.

        Did you try higher order xovers? I have used higher order xovers with other speakers with the TacT but I used Uli Brueggeman's SW to generate xovers and corrections. I didn't hear any ringing and I think that theoretically, at least, the ringing that occurs is many DB lower than the music level. I saw the HiFi News review and I was surprised that the reviewer could hear so much ringing.

        Gregory

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Setting up M30 with subwoofer

          Originally posted by gregoryt

          Did you try higher order xovers? I have used higher order xovers with other speakers with the TacT but I used Uli Brueggeman's SW to generate xovers and corrections. I didn't hear any ringing and I think that theoretically, at least, the ringing that occurs is many DB lower than the music level. I saw the HiFi News review and I was surprised that the reviewer could hear so much ringing.

          Gregory
          Hi Gregory,

          I've tried 6th and 8th order too. I can't say that I am aware of any ringing, but I did prefer 4th. It sounded fuller and more relaxed to me. A friend thought the higher order crossovers sounded more "resolved" and transparent.

          Robert Greene of the Absolute Sound reviewed the TacT using the 10th order crossover to corner woofers at 250hz, and he thought the sound (with M40 main speakers) was a revelation.

          Edward

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Setting up M30 with subwoofer

            Originally posted by amadeuswus
            ... I've tried 6th and 8th order too. I can't say that I am aware of any ringing, but I did prefer 4th. It sounded fuller and more relaxed to me....
            The key point to bear in mind when grafting the output of a subwoofer onto the sonic output from a main (satellite) speaker is to mirror the roll-off of the main speaker in-room to the roll-up of the subwoofer.

            Probably (I'm estimating here) a typical Harbeth speaker has an in-room (i.e. the natural roll-off of the speaker somewhat arrested by the low frequency boost that all domestic rooms seem to have) roll-off of somewhere about 3-10dB per octave right at the bottom end of the audio range - say below 80Hz. Now that implies that to get a flat overall in room response (if that is your objective) you should fade-in the sub's contribution at a corresponding shallow 3-10dB whilst leaving the speaker to contribute its full capabilities right down to the very lowest frequencies.

            Now, a gentle slope like 3-10dB implies a low order filter - say, 1st or second order. So, what happens if we use a subwoofer with a contribution that has a sharper (higher order) filter? In theory there would be a mismatch which would cause a hole in the combined response but alternatively it could result in a bump where the sub and main speaker outputs sum over a certain bandwidth. It would critically depend upon finding a suitable "transition frequency" being the highest frequency that the sub could be unobtrusively blended.

            An alternative strategy is to deliberately cut-off the low frequency signals that would normally reach the main speakers and send all of them to the sub or subs in the frequency splitting circuitry inside the better subs. Then you could indeed abruptly truncate the LF end of the main speakers at say, 100Hz (where the main speakers have a flat output) with a 4th order filter and blend that with a sub with a similar 4th order filter but probably not also at 100Hz - a lower corner frequency of perhaps 90Hz or so for the sub may sum the sub and main speakers to flat considering all the time delays between sound from the sub and main speakers.

            In my experience, a sub filter of about 12-18dB (2nd or 3rd order) with a crossover at an absolute maximum of 60Hz seems to work universally well. Possibly as or more important than the filter slope is that the sub has a variable phase control.
            Alan A. Shaw
            Designer, owner
            Harbeth Audio UK

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Quad II-Forty with Monitor 30

              nobody......and with Naim nait 5i ?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Harbeth Monitor 30 domestic specific

                Are they arrived?
                So, what's your opinion?
                regards,

                David


                Originally posted by Halrich
                David-
                I will give you a personal opinion as soon as my 30's arrive.
                Because of factory delivery, i'm told it may be 45-60 days.
                Does anyone else hear of 2 month (aprox) delivery times for
                M 30?
                I am so looking forward to these!!
                Regards,
                Hal

                Comment


                • #23
                  To be recessed or not, that is the question

                  Hallo to everyone. Just got my Monitor 30's yestereday and, yes, it took over two months of delivery time-I almost had forgotten them. I previously owned M40 but they prooved too big for my amps (I use low power tubes and Crimson 620E) and my room so I had to scale down the speaker. M30 is very similar sounding, also very natural, but much more easy to drive and place, you just let go the 20-40 Hz first otave. I always prefer Harbeths with grills on as I feel I hear less of the "baffle" reaction in the mid-treble region. Now I have a small question for Mr. Shaw. My pair is No 2285 with wood veneered back panel. I noticed an earlier pair (No 2018 I think) photo on the official site that has the flat back panel for binding posts, not the older recessed one (with black paint). Still, in my own, new pair, it is recessed. I know this is not important, and you can feel that this is a question just for fun...but is there some hidden uncertainty for the binding posts to be recessed or not and you keep changing it;

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: To be recessed or not, that is the question

                    Originally posted by Paris Kotsis
                    Hallo to everyone. Just got my Monitor 30's yestereday and, yes, it took over two months of delivery time-I almost had forgotten them. I previously owned M40 but they prooved too big for my amps (I use low power tubes and Crimson 620E) and my room so I had to scale down the speaker. M30 is very similar sounding, also very natural, but much more easy to drive and place, you just let go the 20-40 Hz first otave. I always prefer Harbeths with grills on as I feel I hear less of the "baffle" reaction in the mid-treble region. Now I have a small question for Mr. Shaw. My pair is No 2285 with wood veneered back panel. I noticed an earlier pair (No 2018 I think) photo on the official site that has the flat back panel for binding posts, not the older recessed one (with black paint). Still, in my own, new pair, it is recessed. I know this is not important, and you can feel that this is a question just for fun...but is there some hidden uncertainty for the binding posts to be recessed or not and you keep changing it;
                    Paris,
                    how big is your room?
                    regards,

                    David

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: To be recessed or not, that is the question

                      You don't say but I assume that your back panel must be black? In which case, you would expect to have the (expensively) recessed terminal panel.
                      Alan A. Shaw
                      Designer, owner
                      Harbeth Audio UK

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: To be recessed or not, that is the question

                        David,
                        my room is basically 20 sq.meters but has a large opening to the kitchen, which should make around 30 sq.meters. Main problem with M40 was not the volume of the room, i guess, but its construction and, of course, the need for plenty of power. I don't like big amps and I always keep a system with high sensitivity/low power tube. Having heard the amazing bass of M30 with just 40 watts, I now realize how difficult it would be for a room/amp combo to make justice to M40's extended response
                        Paris

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: To be recessed or not, that is the question

                          Alan,
                          Thank you for your interest. Back panel of my M30's is not black, but "woody", which I mentioned as "wood veneered". That is why I didn't expect recessed binding posts.
                          Paris

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Quad II-Forty with Monitor 30

                            I purchased the Model 30 to replace 15 ohm LS3/5A's for use with my NYAL Futterman OTL 4. I love the top and mid range of the Futterman but it is a very speaker sensitive amp. The model 30 was the best match of the speakers I heard. More time will refine my opinion. The speakers are being used in a small room 13x11 and will be about 7' from my chair.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: To be recessed or not, that is the question

                              does anybody listen to Monitor 30 with Exposure XXXV ?
                              In Italy it's said it's a wonderful match...

                              David

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Harbeth Monitor 30 domestic specific

                                Originally posted by airdavid
                                Yes, they sound good with grills on.
                                I use mid-weight Skylan stands with 2 columns ( www.skylanstands.com ), 60cm (= 24") high

                                bye

                                David
                                I have owned my Model 30 about 6 months. Orginally heard with a Viva intergrated tube amp I purchased them to replace a 25 years old LS3/5a's. I will be using them with a Futterman OTL 4 in a small room 11'x13'. The Futterman has been in for repair for about 3 months so I have been using a Halfer DH200. The diference without the grills on the high end is dramatic but even more inpressive has been biwiring. I am currently using audioquest midnight and it is WORK to connect the wire. Any comments on the biwiring or on wire in general
                                Joe

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