Announcement

Collapse

HUG - here for all audio enthusiasts

Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

HUG has two approaches to contributor's Posts. If you have, like us, a scientific mind and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual area of HUG is for you. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and can be easily understood and tried with negligible technical knowledge.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings sub-forum is you. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters regarding what appears here. That said, very few Posts are rejected. HUG Moderation individually spell and layout checks Posts for clarity but due to the workload, Posts in the Subjective Soundings area, from Oct. 2016 will not be. We regret that but we are unable to accept Posts that present what we consider to be free advertising for products that Harbeth does not make.

That's it! Enjoy!

{Updated Nov. 2016A}
See more
See less

M40 vs M40.1

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by timleety View Post
    Why would you point me to a Harbeth (commerical, not acedemic) page documenting the development of the cone when the speaker in question is a B & W? The article makes no mention whatsoever on "harmonics", nor support your claimed knowledge of the term.
    Originally posted by timleety View Post
    nowhere on the Harbeth link that you recommended makes any mention of harmonics or B & W (or Harbeth) being "out of tune".
    Hi timleety,

    Bingo! Yes, correct. That is the reason I gave you the link. I am glad you finally could heard both drivers were not "out of tune". Very obvious right?

    So now we know a same key was sent to both drivers and both sounded in tune (basic requrirement when do AB comparison), I believe you shd also able to detect the superior sonic from Radial cone to reproduce live like piano sound which, IMO, played better piano harmonics structure by listening to the sound from the video against to other cone. Just like what EricW said : "Harbeths will have a very "true to life" quality at least in part because they do resolve the harmonics very well, and hence instruments sound through them very much as they sound in real life."

    That's all what I was trying to express.

    Anyway, glad to see "timleety aka Fugazi" did not hidding his true nature and character of posting pattern in HUG here.

    Cheers.
    "Bath with Music"

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gan CK View Post
      I haven't heard any Harbeth with Skylan before so can't comment on how they would sound.
      i've had them on open frames, but now put SHL'5s on skylans (filled with Attapulgite clay), not because they sound better but its safer. Its heavily weighted and there is very little chance of it toppling over (after a few drinks and moping about). i thought i hazily heard a difference between frame and mass, something like what is being described here, but i wouldn't say its so distinct and memorable that id prefer one over the other (with the trade offs of each). The speakers are so listenable, even while laying on the floor in front of them, with it towering above. But recently i discovered that the bass from the rear of the speaker (since i have it about 3-4 feet away from the walls) is quite incredible. there is a spot now (at the back of the speaker) if anyone is in the mood for a bit of bass. i will try and lay down there tonight.

      Comment


      • #33
        I do think there is no best stand for a particular speaker. Stand matching is very room and position related. In my case, open frame light weight stand let my harbeth sound closer to what I like but I did hear my friend harbeth sound fantatic on heavy mass stand as well. From my experience, open frame stand do help produce better bass in a room with bass problem.
        "Bath with Music"

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by kittykat View Post
          i've had them on open frames, but now put SHL'5s on skylans (filled with Attapulgite clay), not because they sound better but its safer. Its heavily weighted and there is very little chance of it toppling over (after a few drinks and moping about). i thought i hazily heard a difference between frame and mass, something like what is being described here, but i wouldn't say its so distinct and memorable that id prefer one over the other (with the trade offs of each). The speakers are so listenable, even while laying on the floor in front of them, with it towering above. But recently i discovered that the bass from the rear of the speaker (since i have it about 3-4 feet away from the walls) is quite incredible. there is a spot now (at the back of the speaker) if anyone is in the mood for a bit of bass. i will try and lay down there tonight.
          Hi Kittykat, were your open frame stands filled? If they were filled, then the difference compared to your current Skylan will not amount to much. But if you compare 2 pairs of stands of the same kind, one filled & the other unfilled, then i reckon the difference will be quite a fair bit. For example, some 20 yrs ago when i bought my first Harbeth, it came with a pair of open frame stands that had its pillars filled with leadshot. It was very heavy but the more i listened to it, the more i felt something was not right. Out of curiosity, i took out the stands & put in a pair of plastic stools (similar height) underneath the old HL-5s & was shocked at the difference. The sound opened up considerably & became quite a fair bit more transparent.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by keithwwk View Post
            Hi timleety,

            Bingo! Yes, correct. That is the reason I gave you the link. I am glad you finally could heard both drivers were not "out of tune". Very obvious right?

            So now we know a same key was sent to both drivers and both sounded in tune (basic requrirement when do AB comparison), I believe you shd also able to detect the superior sonic from Radial cone to reproduce live like piano sound which, IMO, played better piano harmonics structure by listening to the sound from the video against to other cone. Just like what EricW said : "Harbeths will have a very "true to life" quality at least in part because they do resolve the harmonics very well, and hence instruments sound through them very much as they sound in real life."

            That's all what I was trying to express.

            Anyway, glad to see "timleety aka Fugazi" did not hidding his true nature and character of posting pattern in HUG here.

            Cheers.
            It would be hilarious if a company put out an article claiming "superiority in harmonics" or an admission to manufacturing speakers that play "out of tune". Reverse satire?

            As EricW so astutely pointed out, my "out of tune" comment was only half serious, so please do not take offence or mistake this for hostility.

            Likewise, I am glad to see that both yourself and Gan CK did not "hidding" your "true nature and character" in this official Harbeth forum. After all, it is okay to incessantly trumpet the merits of a brand in its own forum, without getting under other forumers' collective skins.

            Oh well, I'll attribute it to your sense of humour then. To each his own - can we please give this a rest already?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by keithwwk View Post
              From my experience, open frame stand do help produce better bass in a room with bass problem.
              Oddly enough, I find the reverse to be true. As I have bass boom on certain frequencies only, I borrowed my friend's mass-loaded stands to experiment. The result was better control over my lightweight open frames.

              Not sure why, maybe it varies with rooms, like you said. Best possible scenario is a home trial! Will you guys be trying out the Skylans when the SG dealer brings em in?

              Comment


              • #37
                In the interests of making things more interesting...here goes.

                I presently have the M40's on custom stands I had built for a pair of Magnat 10p speakers many years ago...when levelled the top of the stand is ~15". The stands are not filled with anything, but are substantial and weigh 42 pounds each.

                At first listen I liked the sound, after a bit of "adjusting" I began adding phone books under the speakers...between 18" and 20" was were I felt the bass dialed in best for my room. Now most of what I read suggests the big Harbeths should sit about 14" off the floor...one review I found went so far as to suggest the ideal height being 22" to middle of the bass driver. Obviously the height I have found the greatest nirvana is much higher.

                Numerous speakers have been set up in this room...including of course the Magnats (Dahlquist DQM-9 is the same) which I pull out when I want to revisit the 70's and 80's, the room has never seemed "bass heavy", and I have full length and very heavy and dense velour curtains hanging strategically on both end walls and in 3 places down the long walls...and there has never been any noticeable reflection with this setup.

                The room is 14' x 25', the listening position is ~ 11' from the M40's which sit a full 50" from the back wall, the speakers are 7' apart.

                So what are your thoughts?

                Rick.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by audio39 View Post
                  In the interests of making things more interesting...here goes.

                  I presently have the M40's on custom stands I had built for a pair of Magnat 10p speakers many years ago...when levelled the top of the stand is ~15". The stands are not filled with anything, but are substantial and weigh 42 pounds each.

                  At first listen I liked the sound, after a bit of "adjusting" I began adding phone books under the speakers...between 18" and 20" was were I felt the bass dialed in best for my room. Now most of what I read suggests the big Harbeths should sit about 14" off the floor...one review I found went so far as to suggest the ideal height being 22" to middle of the bass driver. Obviously the height I have found the greatest nirvana is much higher.

                  Numerous speakers have been set up in this room...including of course the Magnats (Dahlquist DQM-9 is the same) which I pull out when I want to revisit the 70's and 80's, the room has never seemed "bass heavy", and I have full length and very heavy and dense velour curtains hanging strategically on both end walls and in 3 places down the long walls...and there has never been any noticeable reflection with this setup.

                  The room is 14' x 25', the listening position is ~ 11' from the M40's which sit a full 50" from the back wall, the speakers are 7' apart.

                  So what are your thoughts?

                  Rick.
                  Well, the addition of books underneath the M40 tells me that the bass of the M40 in your room is a tad overpowering for your? Not too sure about the Magnets but the Dahlquist is a totally different animal compared to M40.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gan CK View Post
                    Well, the addition of books underneath the M40 tells me that the bass of the M40 in your room is a tad overpowering for your? Not too sure about the Magnets but the Dahlquist is a totally different animal compared to M40.
                    The Magnat's and the Dahlquists are one in the same...John Dahlquist simply assembled them in New York and sold them under his name. Magnat is German and still in business, the 10p and DQM-9 are 3 way bookshelf speakers with a low frequency capability of 24 cycles.

                    I don't know that I would agree that the bass is overpowering, I just find that at the height I have mentioned the bass integrates better with the whole...when I use the stands alone I find the bass a bit more pronounced, but also not as tight. It's not that the bass is really that much more "there" though.

                    I'm going to try different locations for the M40's this weekend, and I'll also try having the speakers firing a little less "at me". I know with the B&W's that if I had the big 12" bass drivers toed in the low frequencies would be felt in the gut, so I'll try a bit less toe in.

                    Looks like I'll have a pair of Foundation stands to try out, I'll have to pay full price for them, but we have agreed that if I'm not satisfied I can return them.

                    Rick.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Every room is different, and every speaker is different. I don't see how it could possibly be valid to say that one particular speaker position, or speaker height, will always provide optimum bass response. Beyond the general guideline that the tweeters should be at ear height (or as close as you can manage), it seems to me that getting the optimum bass response from a specific combination of room and speaker is always going to require some experimentation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by audio39 View Post
                        The Magnat's and the Dahlquists are one in the same...John Dahlquist simply assembled them in New York and sold them under his name. Magnat is German and still in business, the 10p and DQM-9 are 3 way bookshelf speakers with a low frequency capability of 24 cycles.

                        I don't know that I would agree that the bass is overpowering, I just find that at the height I have mentioned the bass integrates better with the whole...when I use the stands alone I find the bass a bit more pronounced, but also not as tight. It's not that the bass is really that much more "there" though.

                        I'm going to try different locations for the M40's this weekend, and I'll also try having the speakers firing a little less "at me". I know with the B&W's that if I had the big 12" bass drivers toed in the low frequencies would be felt in the gut, so I'll try a bit less toe in.

                        Looks like I'll have a pair of Foundation stands to try out, I'll have to pay full price for them, but we have agreed that if I'm not satisfied I can return them.

                        Rick.
                        Interesting observation there. For me, i always prefer to toe in my Harbeths till you only see a little of the sides of either spks when seated in the hot spot. I feel that this degree of toeing in improves imaging & focus slightly. But i don't have M40. I am an SHL-5 user. Anyway, i feel that Harbeths are generally less fussy about positioning than many other speakers.

                        I 've seen the foundation stands before & feel that its a tad flimsy for the heavy M40. Its flimsy because one pillar at the bottom is missing. If you can custom make a pair similar to foundation but have that extra pillar at the bottom, it should be very good for the M40. But anyway, since the dealer allows you to return the stands should you not like them, then no harm trying. Btw, if i am not wrong, i think the 801 has 15" bass drivers rather than 12".

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gan CK View Post
                          For me, i always prefer to toe in my Harbeths till you only see a little of the sides of either spks when seated in the hot spot. "
                          Hi Gan CK. i tried this 1-2 months back when you suggested. it does indeed produce a more intense focus but found that the sweet spot was too tight. i have since put it back to a extremely mild toe in and find that i can sit anywhere, even laying on the floor in from if it without upsetting anything.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by kittykat View Post
                            Hi Gan CK. i tried this 1-2 months back when you suggested. it does indeed produce a more intense focus but found that the sweet spot was too tight. i have since put it back to a extremely mild toe in and find that i can sit anywhere, even laying on the floor in from if it without upsetting anything.
                            Hey ther kittykat, like you I have them rather wide apart and very slightly toe-d in, and everyone was telling me to toe-in further. Tried it, didn't like it, like you mentioned, found the sweet spot too intense. Now they're back in the original position and the way I like it - huge soundstage both in depth and height, with that enveloping "wall of sound" effect a la Phil Spector.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Gan CK View Post
                              i think the 801 has 15" bass drivers rather than 12".
                              Hi Gan CK...the N801 and beyond has a 15" low frequency driver, the Matrix series and 80 series had 12" low frequency drivers.

                              Ok, I've been fiddling with toe in...I've tried 2 alternate positions and then listened to each for 5 songs, I am finding the soundstage to widen, but I'm also noticing improvements in bass definition. I do wonder if the large bass driver just throws too much bass to be facing near directly at the listener - as I referenced earlier, I found this anomoly with the 801's.

                              This weekend I intend to continue adjusting toe in, but I'll also move the M40's closer to the rear wall...I adjust 1' initially, then perhaps 6" at a time.

                              It looks like the M40.1's may be in my home the weekend after next...it should be fun to hear the differences between the 2 versions.

                              Now, back to lugging these big fella's hear and there!

                              Rick.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by audio39 View Post
                                Hi Gan CK...the N801 and beyond has a 15" low frequency driver, the Matrix series and 80 series had 12" low frequency drivers.

                                Ok, I've been fiddling with toe in...I've tried 2 alternate positions and then listened to each for 5 songs, I am finding the soundstage to widen, but I'm also noticing improvements in bass definition. I do wonder if the large bass driver just throws too much bass to be facing near directly at the listener - as I referenced earlier, I found this anomoly with the 801's.

                                This weekend I intend to continue adjusting toe in, but I'll also move the M40's closer to the rear wall...I adjust 1' initially, then perhaps 6" at a time.

                                It looks like the M40.1's may be in my home the weekend after next...it should be fun to hear the differences between the 2 versions.

                                Now, back to lugging these big fella's hear and there!

                                Rick.
                                Hi Rick, yes you are right. The 801 matrix series had 12" bass drivers. Age is definitely catching up with me. Anyway, have fun lugging those big fellas here & there. Exercise is good for ya.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X