Announcement

Collapse

HUG - here for all audio enthusiasts

Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

HUG has two approaches to contributor's Posts. If you have, like us, a scientific mind and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual area of HUG is for you. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and can be easily understood and tried with negligible technical knowledge.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings sub-forum is you. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters regarding what appears here. That said, very few Posts are rejected. HUG Moderation individually spell and layout checks Posts for clarity but due to the workload, Posts in the Subjective Soundings area, from Oct. 2016 will not be. We regret that but we are unable to accept Posts that present what we consider to be free advertising for products that Harbeth does not make.

That's it! Enjoy!

{Updated Nov. 2016A}
See more
See less

New Harbeth P3ESR

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Design brief for P3ESR

    Thanks for the brief, Alan. Could you please provide us with an update on the new P3ESR? Have you continued to improve upon the prototypes you demonstrated at the CES. I'd specifically like to know how successful you were in making the P3ESR an easier electrical load than the P3ES2. Thank you.

    Comment


    • #17
      P3ESR - update (1) - final woofer and PCB layout

      The P3ESR is completely finalised. Yes, after CES we made a batch of woofers to check their consistency against the hand-made pair of woofers (s/n ProtoWoofer_046 and _047) used in the rosewood cabinets that I demonstrated at CES in January.

      As our experience in making woofers in-house is for 8" and 12" units, the 5"RADIAL woofer for the P3ESR is a new member of the family. To check consistency, we ran three small pilot production batches since January. We completed the design cycle at 'Woofer_050' after standardising on some parameters of the woofer to be sure that every woofer we make (just like the 8" RADIAL drivers) is virtually identical to every other. This means that all variables have been tied down. There were no surprises - just details that needed to be perfected.

      Having finalised the crossover network for W_50, the master reference, I was able to make some minute improvements to the crossover to make the in-room response of the P3ESR incredibly flat. This was just a matter of pride - I only had to adjust a few values but I did want to get a virtually ruler flat response (on the test computer) because that is exactly how she sounds. For example, I changed one inductor from 2.2mH to 2.0mH, and a capacitor from 33uF to 38uF.

      The last thing to do with the circuit finalised was for me to design the PCB to take the components, on screen, using my PCB track layout programme. Many of the components are in fact inherited from my Monitor 40.1 PCB design so I lifted those component symbols from the M40.1 artwork and placed them onto the brand new P3ESR PCB.

      During this four day PCB track layout process, from time to time as I reached milestones in the PCB layout, I used a screen-cam program to "film" the PCB layout as it was coming along on my screen. Now you can see what I could see and hear me narrating through exactly what I was doing as I move components around to fit them in to the available PCB 'real estate'. We plan to put this on line in the next week or so. It's as good as you standing looking over my shoulder. I hope you find it interesting to see the design actually appearing before your own eyes. Perhaps the first time a designer has shared the intimate secrets of his PCB design?

      About the electrical load: the P3ESR is a much easier load - probably rather similar to a Harbeth LS3/5a. Of course, the laws of physics dictate that a small box cannot simultaneously have very high sensitivity and play very loud and play deep and have a really easy load, and I certainly have not reinvented physics - but I have achieved a similar perfectly usable sensitivity to the P3/ES/ES2 but with about half the amplifier power needs.
      Alan A. Shaw
      Designer, owner
      Harbeth Audio UK

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: P3ESR - update (2) - tweeter

        Originally posted by A.S. View Post

        The P3ESR is completely finalised....
        Hello Alan,
        what kind of tweeter is used in the final version of P3ESR?

        Kindly

        VA

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: P3ESR - update (2) - tweeter

          It is a derivative of the tweeter that we've used in the P3 right back to 1990, made by SEAS. Very good sound: measures very well, stable and repeatable and of course, SEAS are a well managed quality driven company. But it is expensive.
          Alan A. Shaw
          Designer, owner
          Harbeth Audio UK

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: P3ESR - update (1) - final woofer and PCB layout

            Zounds!!! And I just took delivery of my new P3ES2s, thinking I just could not endure the several months of waiting until their replacements were available in Canada. Anyway, I am delighted by the older P3s and suspect they'll do just fine for a year or two while I save up for the newest arrivals. My wife, who loves and knows music but is less of a fan of the equipment has flat-out refused to let these little Harbeths out of her sight. So please, please forum members, no early reviews crowing about how wholly superior the new ones are...

            best,

            o

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: P3ES2 - still selling well

              The design of the P3ESR seems to have taken forever. In fact, my first entry in the Design Logbook for this model is 1995. The reason is that the P3 series, and the current P3ES2, were a very tough act to follow. They had a really nice balance of features: size, sensitivity, power handling, bass extension, image and price.

              The obvious step was to bring the design of the woofer in-house, then we could make it from our RADIAL material just like its big brothers (C7ES3, SHL5, M30, M40.1).

              Professional users are still ordering the P3ES2/Monitor 20 as are many of our overseas distributors and end users. Their experience and enjoyment of the P3ES2 is just like yours. We will continue to offer the current P3ES2 as the Monitor 20 even after the P3ESR commences production next month for those customers and markets that need more marketing time to introduce the new model. We have good stocks of the SEAS-made woofer for the P3ES2 for this year and for future spares needs.

              I've been questioned as to why six months have passed since the exposure of the P3ESR at the Vegas CES and production starting. Actually, the CES was a little early for me, but I'd given an undertaking that I'd be there with the new prototype. I knew that there were several important design steps remaining (all to do with details) so the Vegas prototypes were stripped down. All the details are concluded now; the Vegas prototypes have been rebuilt and improved upon - although you may find that hard to believe.
              Alan A. Shaw
              Designer, owner
              Harbeth Audio UK

              Comment


              • #22
                New Harbeth P3ESR - more enjoyment?

                Mr. Shaw;
                The question of interest to those following this thread who own and love the P3 ES2 is; will the P3R provide a musically significant upgrade from its predecessor, much as the Compact 7ES3 exceeded expectations?

                We've followed your account of the reasons for developing your own Radial driver for the P3 and your design brief. Assuming we already have a suitable set-up with sufficient amplification for enjoyment of music through the P3 ES2, do you, as designer, feel the P3R offers substantially more musical enjoyment? We (we being P3 ES2 owners) will hopefully hear for ourselves, but as designer, do you see the P3R as a worthwhile trade-up?

                regards,
                -Paul-

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: New Harbeth P3ESR - more enjoyment?

                  I've been thinking about your very pertinent question, and seeking a simple, truthful answer. Sorry if this is too long.

                  In my life, loudspeaker design is a sort of alchemy - a never ending pursuit of knowledge. I see it as a disciplined, logical, incremental process that is captivating enough to make a lifetimes career, and financially stable enough to bring up ones children, provide long term employment to colleagues and put something back into society as tax and so on. Now, this 'alchemy' and the desire to use ones abilities to the full and not to be a needless burden on society (I feel very strongly about that subject) sets in motion certain constraints for me. It means that as a designer I have to be cautious in what we bring to market bearing the Harbeth badge. Wearing my financial controllers hat, I must minimise financial risk to Harbeth and hence to myself and my family. What I create must be sellable in quantity over many years because the gestation period is so long.

                  You will understand than that when I introduce a new Harbeth I'm 100% confident that it ...

                  a) is a worthy development of the Harbeth heritage and will build the total brand image
                  b) is wearing the Harbeth badge with pride
                  c) represents the peak, current accumulation of my alchemy knowledge gained over many years
                  d) if given another one, two or five years of my development effort the product couldn't be bettered with the knowledge and technology available now
                  e) is the culmination of a design process which is transparent - i.e. I'm willing to explain to you why I took design decisions
                  e) is excellent long-term value for money
                  f) is marketable: people will like it and buy it and take pleasure in ownership
                  g) will not leave owners of previous generations of that model feeling disappointed or compelled to upgrade

                  It doesn't actually matter what I as the designer think about this or that product. You consumers are judge and jury: all I can confirm is that I've done my very best to distill everything I've learned over the past twenty three years into the new generation P3ESR. It's design process has been the longest, most complicated and most carefully researched (and of course, documented day by day) of any Harbeth loudspeaker.

                  I'm confident that you'll really enjoy the P3ESR.
                  Alan A. Shaw
                  Designer, owner
                  Harbeth Audio UK

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: New Harbeth P3ESR

                    In the June/July issue of The Absolute Sound, Paul Seydor reviews the HLP-3ES2 speaker. That review - and the interview with Alan Shaw which follows it - are models of a thoughtful, rational review process and of a design process that is that and more - exceedingly thorough.
                    Thank you, Alan. (By the way, Paul Seydor bought the review pair of HLP-3ES2s).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: New Harbeth P3ESR - more enjoyment?

                      Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                      I've been thinking about your very pertinent question, and seeking a simple, truthful answer. Sorry if this is too long.

                      In my life, loudspeaker design is a sort of alchemy - a never ending pursuit of knowledge. I see it as a disciplined, logical, incremental process that is captivating enough to make a lifetimes career, and financially stable enough to bring up ones children, provide long term employment to colleagues and put something back into society as tax and so on. Now, this 'alchemy' and the desire to use ones abilities to the full and not to be a needless burden on society (I feel very strongly about that subject) sets in motion certain constraints for me. It means that as a designer I have to be cautious in what we bring to market bearing the Harbeth badge. Wearing my financial controllers hat, I must minimise financial risk to Harbeth and hence to myself and my family. What I create must be sellable in quantity over many years because the gestation period is so long.

                      You will understand than that when I introduce a new Harbeth I'm 100% confident that it ...

                      a) is a worthy development of the Harbeth heritage and will build the total brand image
                      b) is wearing the Harbeth badge with pride
                      c) represents the peak, current accumulation of my alchemy knowledge gained over many years
                      d) if given another one, two or five years of my development effort the product couldn't be bettered with the knowledge and technology available now
                      e) is the culmination of a design process which is transparent - i.e. I'm willing to explain to you why I took design decisions
                      e) is excellent long-term value for money
                      f) is marketable: people will like it and buy it and take pleasure in ownership
                      g) will not leave owners of previous generations of that model feeling disappointed or compelled to upgrade

                      It doesn't actually matter what I as the designer think about this or that product. You consumers are judge and jury: all I can confirm is that I've done my very best to distill everything I've learned over the past twenty three years into the new generation P3ESR. It's design process has been the longest, most complicated and most carefully researched (and of course, documented day by day) of any Harbeth loudspeaker.

                      I'm confident that you'll really enjoy the P3ESR.
                      Mr. Shaw,

                      Fair enough, we'll have to hear for ourselves. Aside from simply enjoying the P3 ES2 for the music, I've taken a sort of pride-of-ownership in the coherent way it manifests your design philosophy. As for the P3ESR, I won't be disappointed if it surpasses my ES2. But if it does, I may very well feel compelled to upgrade.

                      regards,
                      -Paul-

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: New Harbeth P3ESR - production when?

                        Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                        Actually, the prototype which I showed at the CES I brought out with me from the UK having worked over the Christmas break on voicing it. We are some way from mass production and the P3ES2 still has a strong following and is still being reviewed so we're not rushing into this new variant after 19 years of P3 > P3ES2 production. The current SEAS based M20 version of the P3ES2 continues in production for the foreseeable future as the BBC are in the middle of a re-equipping programme replacing other monitors with M20 and are happy with it. We've lots of parts for the P3ES2/Monitor 20 in stock so these products are very much alive and selling and they are great mini monitors.

                        Furthermore, we just don't have the capacity to slot these new P3ESRs into our full order book without carefully managing the transition or it will inevitably slow down other production. There are some custom made parts (such as the injection moulded RADIAL cone, new cabinet, new tweeter, crossover etc.) which are on order from suppliers but we're at the back of their production queues. There are no plans to make any other demonstration pairs as we just don't have the parts to do so and certainly no formal reviews are planned until we are ready for production. A marketing launch will be scheduled for March/April.

                        So you are welcome to order through your dealer but the delivery date will be after May 09 and we expect the first batches to be snapped-up.

                        If anything changes we'll let you all know through the Harbeth User Group. Thanks for your patience.
                        I see may 09 mentioned here. Can I order my pair at my dealer now?
                        What finishes will be available?

                        I have these P3ES-2 at home and I love them:

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Harbeth P3ESR - availability

                          Thanks for the wonderful picture.

                          My biggest concern with the P3ESR is keeping up with likely demand. I've been explaining here since January 09 and the unveiling of the prototype at Las Vegas that production was planned for June. We're on track. In fact, the first two pairs were shipped this week.

                          As you know, we build to order - we do not build speculatively in the anticipation that we will find customers. We don't have the physical space to store speculative stock-builds and with several veneer choices and several models, we could never have the right stock balance. Our order book is completely full until and into September, and that's before we officially launch the P3ESR.

                          You are encouraged and most welcome to place an order with your local dealer. The price list was published in January. Frankly, what I cannot give you is a delivery date: that entirely depends upon where a distributor/dealer's orders are in the pipeline, if at all. Many - but not all distributors - are able to sense the local market and plan well ahead. Our ISO9001 sales in - order out pipeline forces us into treating all customer orders strictly in sequence. If you are interested in the P3ESR, may I strongly suggest that you have a quiet word with your local outlet about availability.

                          We are pre-building the 5" RADIAL woofer for the P3ESR in house now, so that we have several hundred available in advance of full production start next month.
                          Alan A. Shaw
                          Designer, owner
                          Harbeth Audio UK

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Harbeth P3ESR - availability

                            Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                            Thanks for the wonderful picture.

                            My biggest concern with the P3ESR is keeping up with likely demand. I've been explaining here since January 09 and the unveiling of the prototype at Las Vegas that production was planned for June. We're on track. In fact, the first two pairs were shipped this week.

                            As you know, we build to order - we do not build speculatively in the anticipation that we will find customers. We don't have the physical space to store speculative stock-builds and with several veneer choices and several models, we could never have the right stock balance. Our order book is completely full until and into September, and that's before we officially launch the P3ESR.

                            You are encouraged and most welcome to place an order with your local dealer. The price list was published in January. Frankly, what I cannot give you is a delivery date: that entirely depends upon where a distributor/dealer's orders are in the pipeline, if at all. Many - but not all distributors - are able to sense the local market and plan well ahead. Our ISO9001 sales in - order out pipeline forces us into treating all customer orders strictly in sequence. If you are interested in the P3ESR, may I strongly suggest that you have a quiet word with your local outlet about availability.

                            We are pre-building the 5" RADIAL woofer for the P3ESR in house now, so that we have several hundred available in advance of full production start next month.

                            Thank you very much for your answer.
                            It did make sense, and I will have a word with my dealer soon.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: New Harbeth P3ESR

                              Dear Alan-

                              I probably use my P3es2's anywhere from 7 - 10 hours a day and with each day they continue to surprise me. They are a simply superb product and once again must thank you and your team for your hard work. When I first was introduced to Harbeth, it was with your Compact 7es3's. I found them extremely revealing, soulful, and wish that my room and placement restrictions were better suited for speaker of that size. In effort to get closer to the performance of the compact 7es3's, would there be a noticeable step forward with the P3esR's over the P3es2's? The cost of the upgrade is minimal, I am just wondering if you feel that the new versions are bridging the gap between the P3es2's and the Compact 7es3's or are they beginning a new "sonic path", if you will, for Harbeth.

                              Sincerely-

                              Wes

                              PS...I currently have them in the Eucalyptus veneer, which I like, but I was wondering, do you a similar available but slightly whiter that isn't maple?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: New Harbeth P3ESR

                                To All-

                                Writing that, just made me remember that I wanted to mention something to fellow P3 listeners. My speakers are placed on my desk and I was having a bit of an issue with my desk creating noise caused by the P3's vibrating it, even when I used Auralex Mopads. A friend at a recording studio suggested these "recoil stabilizers " that would help tame the added and I would like to pass this advice to all of you. The product is called the Primacoustic RX5 Recoil Stabilizer, it fits the P3's like a glove, and worked wonders improving the sound quality of my system. They retail for $85 each, but I got both for $120. They are a sandwich of foam, tempered metal, and neoprene, they look snazzy, and are worth every nickel. If you use these speakers on a desk or suffer from added noise due to your speakers vibrating whatever they are sitting on, these will help. They make a few models including different placement angles (down or up firing) and larger sizes (up to 20" x 22"). Just thought I would mention them as they truly made a difference, one that even my girlfriend could appreciate.

                                -Wes

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X