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HUG - here for all audio enthusiasts

Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

HUG has two approaches to contributor's Posts. If you have, like us, a scientific mind and are curious about how the ear works, how it can lead us to make the right - and wrong - decisions, and about the technical ins and outs of audio equipment, how it's designed and what choices the designer makes, then the factual area of HUG is for you. The objective methods of comparing audio equipment under controlled conditions has been thoroughly examined here on HUG and elsewhere and can be easily understood and tried with negligible technical knowledge.

Alternatively, if you just like chatting about audio and subjectivity rules for you, then the Subjective Soundings sub-forum is you. If upon examination we think that Posts are better suited to one sub-forum than than the other, they will be redirected during Moderation, which is applied throughout the site.

Questions and Posts about, for example, 'does amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B' or 'which speaker stands or cables are best' are suitable for the Subjective Soundings area.

The Moderators' decision is final in all matters regarding what appears here. That said, very few Posts are rejected. HUG Moderation individually spell and layout checks Posts for clarity but due to the workload, Posts in the Subjective Soundings area, from Oct. 2016 will not be. We regret that but we are unable to accept Posts that present what we consider to be free advertising for products that Harbeth does not make.

That's it! Enjoy!

{Updated Nov. 2016A}
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SHL5s balance in my room

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  • #46
    Science and metal compartments

    Originally posted by jack667 View Post
    As mentioned previously, I appreciate everyone's feedback.
    Jack - I rather doubt that Alan is patronizing you, but look at this from the other end.

    You provided a list of things that did not work, to wit:
    • Speakers were lifted completely off the stands whilst music was playing
    • Granite slabs were placed under the stands
    • Stands were replaced with thin wooden stools, about 25" high
    • Sofa was pulled out 50cm from the back wall
    • Speaker placement changed
    • Introduced a heavy rug on the floor


    How does explaining a little about standing waves amount to being patronising?

    I perceive a major problem these days is that true science - be it basic acoustics or electronics - is partitioned within an equal-size compartment in the audiophile psyche to the one that says "cabling changes the sound" and the one that says "CD players change the sound", the one marked "speaker stands make a BIG difference to the sound etc. etc. and it is this kind of thinking that drives the response you typically obtain on hi-fi forums. You have no doubt yet to hear the one about your proposed EQ solution which will "destroy" your music. The number of forum debates that appear to conclude that audio science is weak or incomplete don't bear thinking about, so it's hardly surprising that, sometimes, people seem to need putting back on the rails.

    {Moderator's comment: As Alan said, posts he makes are *always* written for a wider audience. They may well be overly simplistic for 1% of the readership. But he is not chained to the PC 24 hours a day as an Audio Agony Aunt. This is a free (and completely willing) service in the interests of great musical satisfaction at home. Thanks.}

    Comment


    • #47
      Thanks!

      Alan, that's very kind of you. I wouldn't want to put you out, and I'm quite far away in London.

      That's a great idea with the foot switch.

      I figured the digital one would be best as it seems to have control over the full frequency range- I might be wrong though!

      I'm a big fan of Behringer, whenever we've used their rack gear in the studio I've always been really impressed with the quality of their products considering the price.

      Thanks

      Comment


      • #48
        Which Behringer?

        Originally posted by jack667 View Post
        ...if the digi-eq helps me then I'd be more than happy to share my findings.
        What is the model name of the Behringer?

        (Don't forget to tell as about your findings, pls).

        Comment


        • #49
          Appreciate the time

          Originally posted by Pluto View Post
          Jack - I rather doubt that Alan is patronizing you, but look at this from the other end.

          You provided a list of things that did not work, to wit:
          • Speakers were lifted completely off the stands whilst music was playing
          • Granite slabs were placed under the stands
          • Stands were replaced with thin wooden stools, about 25" high
          • Sofa was pulled out 50cm from the back wall
          • Speaker placement changed
          • Introduced a heavy rug on the floor


          How does explaining a little about standing waves amount to being patronising?

          I perceive a major problem these days is that true science - be it basic acoustics or electronics - is partitioned within an equal-size compartment in the audiophile psyche to the one that says "cabling changes the sound" and the one that says "CD players change the sound", the one marked "speaker stands make a BIG difference to the sound etc. etc. and it is this kind of thinking that drives the response you typically obtain on hi-fi forums. You have no doubt yet to hear the one about your proposed EQ solution which will "destroy" your music. The number of forum debates that appear to conclude that audio science is weak or incomplete don't bear thinking about, so it's hardly surprising that, sometimes, people seem to need putting back on the rails.

          {Moderator's comment: As Alan said, posts he makes are *always* written for a wider audience. They may well be overly simplistic for 1% of the readership. But he is not chained to the PC 24 hours a day as an Audio Agony Aunt. This is a free (and completely willing) service in the interests of great musical satisfaction at home. Thanks.}
          Not to continue this any further but remember I haven't spent a penny, nor did I intend to. I enquired about acoustic treatment, which was actually shot down by quite a few posters on the other forum as being insignificant in a room like mine that actually needs to be lived in.

          Ok- let's wrap it up there. I apologise if I acted hasty - and if you've seen me on any other forums you'll understand how appreciative I am of people's free time in order to help.

          Comment


          • #50
            1951 - and room acoustic issues remain the same today

            Attached (from 1951) is what I consider to be the best overview of the entire problem of room treatment. It was written for the public in an era when the public were not afraid of a few graphs. I've marked up (PDF comment in yellow on page 5) some observations that jump off the page to me that may be relevant to home listening rooms.

            This is really the only technical paper you need to give you a damned good introduction to the subject. If the author, P. A. Shields is still alive, we applaud your clarity. The PDF meets the standards shown at the
            foot of this web page.

            >
            Attached Files
            Alan A. Shaw
            Designer, owner
            Harbeth Audio UK

            Comment


            • #51
              Behringer

              Originally posted by A.S. View Post
              Attached (from 1951) is what I consider to be the best overview of the entire problem of room treatment. It was written for the public in an era when the public were not afraid of a few graphs. I've marked up (PDF comment in yellow on page 5) some observations that jump off the page to me that may be relevant to home listening rooms.

              This is really the only technical paper you need to give you a damned good introduction to the subject. If the author, P. A. Shields is still alive, we applaud your clarity. The PDF meets the standards shown at the
              foot of this web page.

              >
              Interesting read - thanks.

              Alan, which Behringer model was it you modified?

              Thanks

              Comment


              • #52
                Room correction in real time with the PC

                Right - I had a solution today when using audio from the computer. I can run Soundflower & Audio Hijack Pro and EQ in real time digitally.

                Based on just my ears (no room correction mic), the 31 band EQ looks like this:



                That's an -11dB dip at 50Hz! It really is crazy how much boom I'm getting.

                With a -3dB dip at 31.5Hz and 40Hz I'm getting quite an 'even' sound. The trade off being that they've lost some scale. Am I ever going to beat this? Haha.

                Even still, EQ'd is better than no EQ - so I'm gonna get myself the Behringer, but I believe the DEQ2496 is also a 31 band EQ.. seems like I can't select exact frequencies? (like when I did the test, and the real troublesome freq was 52Hz)

                Does anyone have any experience with this unit? http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx

                Cheers.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Solved! My DIY bass-traps

                  ...I did try to tame bass issues just yesterday.

                  It is not really new stuff. I screwed triangular wooden frames (45cm x 60cm x 75 cm), filled them with rockwool and put them into the corners behind the speakers.
                  (of course some foil around it, therefore the wooden frames: I just was not able to put that around the rockwoll without any solid stuff to stabilize it)

                  With trumenduous results! Maybe they do not work below 50Hz (guess you can calculate how deep they can go by their measurements) but they obviously work within the frequencies that are included in the music that I listen to.

                  It is really unbelieveable how a tamed bass can sound. Virtually never heard that before.

                  Id wish I would have concentrated on room-acoustics far earlier. Its the holy grail!!!

                  ;-)

                  {Moderator's comment: Please can we have some pictures of your design asap.}

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    My DIY absorbers - pictures

                    Overview picture here

                    {Moderator's comment. Great. More pictures of the actual construction please!}

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      DIY traps

                      Now attached the pictures.

                      Picture One an Two showing the assembly.

                      2 pictures show the frames in the corner, with the frame partly filled on the second picture.

                      Have to mention that I luckily have a dedicated listening room. So the beauty of it all was only secondary.

                      On last (rather dark) picture you can see the end result with curtains
                      (which makes it look like a real cinema)


                      Picture One http://s14.directupload.net/file/d/2...9dpien_jpg.htm

                      Picture 2 http://s1.directupload.net/file/d/2806/ifu7q6g4_jpg.htm
                      Attached Files

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Wow, that looks great Thurston!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          ...a little brighter (after that ill stop uploading more pictures)
                          ;-)


                          @jack:
                          Thank you!
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Shrink wrap?

                            Thurston, Great work!

                            Did you wrap the rockwool with shrink wrappers? And did you fill up the whole compartment with rockwool? Thanks.

                            ST

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              @ST:

                              Exactly as you write!

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                How Rockwool works

                                On behalf of the entire HUG membership, hats-off to thurston for showing genuine enterprise and innovation creating these DIY absorbers. They are designed according to the predictable laws of physics. They will and do work. Common sense* (those words again) tell you that to mechanically (physically) absorb/modify low frequencies you need acoustic mass (aka Rockwool). There is no alternative. None, other than reducing the amount of energy arriving at the speaker terminals (using some sort of in-line EQ) in those problem frequency bands so that they outputs less sound energy, which combined with the room boost at those frequencies, add together to a tolerable overall even sound. Thank god for German pragmatic engineering: we're making real progress on the room-tuning front at long last.

                                What would be excellent is to see some dimensioned DIY plans ... or even if thurston would consider making these available in kit-form for other HUG members?

                                P.S. No, I'm wrong and was corrected about this recently. Common sense tells me that if you want to absorb low frequency sounds, you need acoustic mass. Proof: nuclear test explosions are conducted far under the ground. Reason: the low frequency sound generated by an explosion is immense and does most of the damage to buildings via the sonic boom and wind-rush. No amount of 'decoupling' or 'air gaps' between the bomb and the surrounding air will tame the LF energy one jot. For that you have to impede the progress of the sound energy, and the best solution for that is solid granite.

                                In-room our best solution is to create friction between the air molecules wobbling about in the room. And that's how Rockwool works: it's a hairy, irregular, dense material through wihci sound waves will (reluctantly) try and pass through, and which progressively converts the motion energy in the sound wave into heat as it weaves its way like an exhausted athlete through the material until (in an ideal world) there is no energy to reflect back: the sound wave has dropped dead at the finishing line.

                                Sound waves, especially in the low frequency range are extremely powerful. That means they cannot be stopped with ease. How powerful? See here.
                                Alan A. Shaw
                                Designer, owner
                                Harbeth Audio UK

                                Comment

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