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Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

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Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

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  • #61
    HL-P3 and a 15wpc tube amp?

    I'm considering going from Naim amplification to a 15 wpc push-pull tube amp (Leben 300x). I'm also considering a 20 wpc single-ended tube amp. I'm in a small room (13' x 15'). I don't listen very loudly, either. Knowing my maximum volume constraint, would this work OK?

    Comment


    • #62
      15W .... compared to a 40W light bulb is little power

      We've covered the subject of power and loudness here before in depth.

      15W is just that: 15W. Consider this: a normal domestic room-light bulb is rated (in the UK) at 40W, 60W or 100W. All the light bulb has to do is sit and glow - it doesn't have to move a speaker cone or do any real 'muscle' work like that.

      Now, 15W is a very small amount of power however you look at it, and the P3 is not very sensitive (physics and bass for a small box) and you have a good sized room .... so .... taken together your combination will work well on music of a low power demand such as string quartets. But it will leave you with no real power reserve.

      I have never really understood why very small amplifiers took hold of the public's imagination when Watts are so cheap:. the processor in my PC radiates more than 15W and all its doing is producing 15W of heat whilst the electrons in the chip run around - again, no muscle involved. From my perspective, regardless of speaker brand or model, if I were selecting an amp for home use, I'd start at about 30W minimum because I always want a power reserve just in case the music demands it.

      Luckily for those using very small amps - especially tube ones - the onset of distortion when the (tube) amp runs out of power is not really audible, hence users of very low power tube amps are often unaware of their headroom limitation. But there is still no substitute for having a bigger motor just ticking-over rather than hammering a smaller one. As I've said before, I'd rather be cruising in a Bentley at 5% of its power potential with 95% in reserve than in a sports car at 75% of its capability.

      Which reminds me: did you know that Rolls Royce/Bentley never quoted the power output of their engines in their sales literature. When a prospective customer asked the showroom salesman for the power rating, the salesman paused, mildly sniffed and said over the brim of his glasses "Adequate, Sir." The same rules apply to hi-fi!
      Alan A. Shaw
      Designer, owner
      Harbeth Audio UK

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      • #63
        Re: HL-P3 and a 15wpc tube amp?

        Thanks for your advice, Alan.

        Comment


        • #64
          Speakers only 1% efficient? True!

          Oh - forgot to mention ....... remember that almost all loudspeakers are very inefficient devices. That's the basic physics of the situation. (Horn speakers stand out as being more efficient but they have their own particular sonic quality).

          Let's assume that the speaker only converts about 1% of the energy it receives at its input terminals into sound - 1% is typical. If you are using a 15W amp, that means only 0.15W of acoustic power is generated by the speaker. That'll still fill a normal domestic room with sound, but it won't fill a hall! So, having a little more power available to the speaker's input is a good idea in my opinion to overcome the dreadful efficiency of all moving-coil speakers.
          Alan A. Shaw
          Designer, owner
          Harbeth Audio UK

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

            Good day!

            My HL-P3es2 will arrive next week...I was wondering what would be the "best" set-up for the speakers (i.e. distance from each other, distance form the back wall, etc.)...below are my associated equipment:

            Conrad Johnson Evo-2000 200wpc Power Amplifier (Hybrid)
            Counterpoint SA-1000 Pre-Amplifier (Hybrid)
            Opera Consonance Reference 2.2 Tube CD Player
            Analysis Plus Oval 1 Interconnects
            Xindak FA-2 Ribbon Speaker Cables
            Pro-ject RPM 6.1SB Turntable w/ Audio Technica AT33PTG MC Cartridge


            Room size is 3.5meters x 4.5meters...Thanks and regards!


            JD :D

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

              Originally posted by Superman
              Good day!

              My HL-P3es2 will arrive next week...I was wondering what would be the "best" set-up for the speakers (i.e. distance from each other, distance form the back wall, etc.)...below are my associated equipment:

              Conrad Johnson Evo-2000 200wpc Power Amplifier (Hybrid)
              Counterpoint SA-1000 Pre-Amplifier (Hybrid)
              Opera Consonance Reference 2.2 Tube CD Player
              Analysis Plus Oval 1 Interconnects
              Xindak FA-2 Ribbon Speaker Cables
              Pro-ject RPM 6.1SB Turntable w/ Audio Technica AT33PTG MC Cartridge


              Room size is 3.5meters x 4.5meters...Thanks and regards!


              JD :D
              It's very difficult to give advice that will be appropriate for conditions very different from my own. I've found that the P3s work very well about 2m apart, slightly toed in, and 3m from the listening position. They're about 40cm from the back wall (this is probably too close, but I can't do anything else) and 2.5m from the side walls. Abslolutely critical is that the tweeters should be level with yours ears when you are listening. As you can see, they're working for me in a room quite a bit larger than yours. The best thing to do is experiment; see what's best. Whatever you do you'll enjoy them; they're amazing 'speakers.

              Good listening

              David

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                My HL-P3 ES2 had a small ding (lower left corner/back) near the speaker terminals...mine is a eucalyptus finish wood veneer...May i ask if this is MDF or real wood? the "ding" is about 1/4 of an inch and it "flattened" the corner somehow...while i know this won;t affect the sound, what would you advise me to do?? Do you sell cabinets separately?? and if yes, how much is the cost?? my speakers are less than a year old, Thanks and best regards! :D

                here's a picture:

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                  Sorry to see the picture of the crushed corner. It looks extremely serious to me, and yes they are veneered on MDF. This is absolutely typical of the speaker being dropped or rolled on that corner - perhaps falling off the stand? I think that it will not be possible to make a perfect repair as the corner joint is burst - but you can disguise it, or rather, a local cabinet maker/restorer may be able to.
                  Alan A. Shaw
                  Designer, owner
                  Harbeth Audio UK

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                    I 've just heard Harbeth speakers for the first time on a business trip to Ottawa, Canada, after at least a couple of years of whetting my appetite reading about them. As it happened, the only pair left in the store were the HL-P3ES2s. The Harbeth line apparently has a habit of selling out from the recently appointed dealer/distributor in Ottawa, Canada. That is completely understandable after a brief listen.

                    The music issuing from these little boxes was phenomenal. The good things I'd read did not prepare me for the realism, the energy and the snap that filled the room. Not having the benefit of an audition of the C-73s or the HL-5s, I confess difficulty in imagining how anything could be more completely enchanting in a small room. The dealer's showroom was considerably bigger than my den at home; but the bass seemed fully sufficient without blanketing the rest of the music. I might add that this was my first experience of a sealed box design in a serious speaker.

                    I've heard a fair range of well-regarded speakers from various manufacturers, and I have some very nice mini-monitors at home - or so I used to think. The experience was a little disorienting; it left me wondering why anyone else bothers manufacturing new bookshelf designs at all, except to make them cheaper. It seems the design of small 2 -ways was perfected a couple of decades ago. Perhaps some of the new tweeters can provide more detail in absolute terms, albeit at the risk of etching the glass in your windows. But; I certainly haven't heard such an all-around, natural rightness and balance before.

                    Just as well I didn't get to hear their big brothers in the Harbeth line just yet. I'll need to live with the P3ES2s for awhile first...

                    Happy holidays and best in the New Year to all,
                    -paul-

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                      I would like to know the difference between the HL-P3ES2 and the M20. What does pro-version really mean? In lay terms. And why is it not possible to buy them in Germany? Thank you for takin the time for answering.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                        The M20 was originally available in a grey-paint finish with a Speakon professional connector. At customer requests, a veneered version was then made available to the domestic market with standard binding posts to complete the M20/30/40 line-up. In practice, you can interchange the current P3ES2 and M20.

                        As for availability of Harbeth speakers in different markets, this depends upon the local distributor and how he decides to market Harbeth in his territory.
                        Alan A. Shaw
                        Designer, owner
                        Harbeth Audio UK

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                          I have bought second hand a pair of these - apparently about six years old but they really are so handsome you would never guess. I have connected them to a naim cd5i and nait 5i amp which again as I bought second hand came with various connectors including speakers cables. I connected up the harbeths this lunch time and the sound was mostly to die for. But, the connections are gold plated (I think) banana plugs at both ends and as a former electronics engineer I wasn't happy with the quality of the connection because of the tight space within the connection section of the speakers - I thought too that this had a knock on effect re: the quality of the bridge connection across the tweeters and woofer. So, my question is would I be wiser to cut off the banana plug and just connect using the wire? If there is a problem at all with the sound it is that it is a touch bright - could easily be the room set-up though.

                          Thanks for any advice

                          Andy

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                            Originally posted by Andy1912 View Post
                            ... I connected up the Harbeths this lunch time and the sound was mostly to die for. But, the connections are gold plated (I think) banana plugs... So, my question is would I be wiser to cut off the banana plug and just connect using the wire?
                            We're glad that your new purchase is performing as it should. Frankly, you are entirely at liberty to do whatever you want to the cables or plugs -or even biwire links - but truly, I don't think that it will make any difference to the sound.

                            Please remember to Register your Harbeths. Even if you are not the first owner, you can still Register here.
                            Alan A. Shaw
                            Designer, owner
                            Harbeth Audio UK

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                              Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                              The M20 was originally available in a grey-paint finish with a Speakon professional connector. At customer requests, a veneered version was then made available to the domestic market with standard binding posts to complete the M20/30/40 line-up. In practice, you can interchange the current P3ES2 and M20.

                              As for availability of Harbeth speakers in different markets, this depends upon the local distributor and how he decides to market Harbeth in his territory.
                              Alan,

                              If the M20 is the same as P3, then why not have the customers go for a P3 instead of modifying the original M20's finishing and connections?

                              Or is there in fact some differences? between a M20 designa and a P3?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                                OK thanks very much. I still feel I'll make a better connection without the banana plugs because they are running through the connection slot at a slight angle so the connection is not as full as it could be.

                                Comment

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