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Since its inception ten years ago, the Harbeth User Group's ambition has been to create a lasting knowledge archive. Knowledge is based on facts and observations. Knowledge is timeless. Knowledge is human independent and replicatable. However, we live in new world where thanks to social media, 'facts' have become flexible and personal. HUG operates in that real world.

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Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

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  • #76
    Matching center speaker

    Hi,

    I just bought the HL-P3ES2 for dual-purpose, stereo music listening and home theatre. For movies the P3s will be used for the front left/right channel.

    I've been recommended to find a center speaker with matching timbre and characteristics, but really don't know where to start looking. Should I look at spendor? Any other recommendations?

    Comment


    • #77
      Centre channel - moved to new thread

      Originally posted by redryder View Post
      ...I've been recommended to find a center speaker with matching timbre and characteristics...
      This is an important new subject. I've created a new thread to hold this here. Please continue the treat after following that link, not here.
      Alan A. Shaw
      Designer, owner
      Harbeth Audio UK

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

        Originally posted by A.S. View Post
        The M20 was originally available in a grey-paint finish with a Speakon professional connector. At customer requests, a veneered version was then made available to the domestic market with standard binding posts to complete the M20/30/40 line-up. In practice, you can interchange the current P3ES2 and M20.
        Thats all? I wonder why you sell the same speaker under two different names.
        I fact are more: HL-P3ES2, MONITOR 20 domestic and MONITOR 20 profesional.

        Sorry, can't follow you.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

          I have made our marketing position clear about M20/P3 in previous postings and there is nothing more that I can usefully add to what I have already said.

          We are a commercial business and we follow our customers (or distributors) requests if it is practicable for us to do so without disrupting our production process. I repeat: this is a case where we followed our customer's aspirations and requests - we did not dream-up this product policy here.

          I should add that the M20 remains popular with professional users who do not wish to buy P3 even though they could (I assume).
          Alan A. Shaw
          Designer, owner
          Harbeth Audio UK

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

            Hello Alan,
            slowly I'm starting to catch your philosophy. The only source for that is this user group, but it is so huge, that it take time to read and merge all yours statements. But I'm on the right way...

            P.S. there are no plans to release some speakers in high gloss black finish ?

            Comment


            • #81
              Piano black?

              No there are no plans to introduce piano black at this time. If you're interested, we do discuss this from time to time within Harbeth and only last week we reviewed this issue again.

              We concluded that there are three basic concerns ....

              1. Handling. The customer expects (and pays for) a perfect finish. With piano black finish, every microscopic blemish is extremely visible. Even if a plastic bag is brought into contact with the finish, it may leave some tiny scratches. This means that right along our cabinet maker's production line, through packing, transport, delivery to us, our assembly packing, transport to you and finally your opening and handling we would have to be certain that there were no marking or scuffing, no matter how small. We believe that this would require a total rethink of our entire assembly and handling, and this would slow down production at a time when sales are steadily growing. Now is not the right time to put obstacles in the way of smooth production.

              2. The piano blacking process involves typically 10-20 layers of lacquer, and much polishing and sanding between layers. It's a very dirty, slow process. I have visited cabinet making companies doing piano blacking and the working conditions are frankly inhuman. The microscopic lacquer dust and the fumes are choking and I find it totally unacceptable that workers should be subjected to that degradation. Piano blacking is, literally, killing them. We don't want to be part of that commercial game.

              3. These 10-20 coats will definitely stiffen the cabinet walls, and that in turn will undoubtedly change the tonality of the cabinet. That just can't be allowed.
              Alan A. Shaw
              Designer, owner
              Harbeth Audio UK

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Piano black?

                Originally posted by A.S. View Post
                No there are no plans to introduce piano black at this time.... The piano blacking process involves typically 10-20 layers of lacquer, and much polishing and sanding between layers. It's a very dirty, slow process. I have visited cabinet making companies doing piano blacking and the working conditions are frankly inhuman. The microscopic lacquer dust and the fumes are choking and I find it totally unacceptable that workers should be subjected to that degradation. Piano blacking is, literally, killing them. We don't want to be part of that commercial game.
                It's good to be involved with a company that is concerned about the health of its workers. Bravo!

                David

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                  Hello Alan,

                  I accept and appreciate your judicious answers.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                    Hello All-

                    I have an interesting question to which I would appreciate any thoughts. I have listened to the Linn Katan's in their "aktiv" mode (which is essentially having them actively bi amplified) and they sounded much, much better then when they were conventionally powered. I am wondering, would the P3es2's benefit from a similar power situation? So, for the sake of argument, which would sound better, powering them using setup A or B? ***Room Size is 13' x 12.5' x 9'h***

                    A) QTY 1, Parasound Halo JC2, Pre-Amplifier
                    QTY 2, Parasound Halo A23, 125watt x 2ch Amplifiers
                    QTY 1, Bryston 10B Crossover, Set to match the crossover points of the P3es2's

                    <or>

                    B) QTY 1, Parasound Halo JC2, Pre-Amplifier
                    QTY 1, Parasound Halo A21, 250watt x 2ch Amplifier

                    I was also wondering what the crossover point on the P3es2 is? Any thoughts on these possible setups, or if you have any other recommended setups (without utilizing a tube amp), I would love to hear them.

                    Thanks-

                    Wes

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Making an active speaker from a passive one

                      It's an interesting question, but it's essential to fully understand what you have been listening to. I fear that you are setting yourself up for a disaster.

                      You say that the other speakers are 'actively bi amplified'. This implies that instead of a conventional passive network inside the speakers (made from big coils, resistors and capacitors) driven from an external amplifier the new design features a line-level filter arrangement combined with power amplifiers inside (or alongside) the speakers driven directly from a line-level source, such as a CD player's output. We make active Monitor 40's like that, with the line-level electronics , psu and power amplifiers in a 19" case which sits under the speakers so we have some experience of active electronics.

                      However, this is just the starting point in what is an extremely complex design process. It is absolutely critical to appreciate that only one function of the crossover network is to divide the signal between the drive units (so that low frequencies are never fed to the tweeter). The other job the crossover has to do is to shape the overall response because - and this is really important to appreciate - real world woofer an tweeter drive units interact with the geometry of the baffle onto which they are mounted and this causes significant boosts in the sound pressure (frequency response) output. Now to the crux of the matter: the speaker designer may or may not correct these output boosts. If the crossover is simple with few components* he cannot do this accurately because a few components can't do the job of many components, so he has to accept a compromise. If (as in our case) we use a more complex crossover we can make relatively fine adjustments. But what is the situation when the entire passive crossover is discarded and replaced with an electronic one? Again, the designer can make choices about the overall frequency response shape, but this time he can if he so chooses make even more subtle adjustments using very small electronic components.

                      So, what I'm saying is that you are most probably not comparing like-with-like when you audition a passive network against an active one. You are in danger of drawing the conclusion that active is better than passive when in fact, what you are hearing is a different spectral balance only due to the designer having more tricks to manipulate the frequency response in the active circuit.

                      So, what sort of voltage-curve should you deliver to the drive units from the output of the active filter/amp solution or indeed the passive network? I've covered this here. Note that the voltage drive is very definitely not flat. If you can emulate the curves shown in the last two graphs then you have a fighting chance that your active solution will work.

                      * I have never understood how simple crossovers have had such a following because they are so exceedingly designer-unfriendly. In the hands of the marketing boys though, these simple two or three component 'first order' crossover networks have a cult status. But they inevitably mean that the speaker's frequency response cannot be flat and the best the designer can hope for is a bodged overall response.. Some folks like that sound though.
                      Alan A. Shaw
                      Designer, owner
                      Harbeth Audio UK

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                        Alan-

                        Thank you for the response and I will read your report on crossovers the next chance I get.

                        The Linn's that I listened to utilize a unique system that bypasses the speakers crossover network for crossovers on board the Linn amplifiers when in an "aktiv" setup. The reason for my question is that I am currently looking for a preamplifier and amplifier to power my P3es2's, and I was wondering if the overall sound would benefit from doing something similar without bypassing the speakers on board crossover network. I guess it would be better just to ask, what preamp / amp combination's have been found to mate best with the P3's (and this question goes to all)?

                        Thanks Again-

                        Wes

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                          HL-P3 amp matching and fair value.

                          Last weekend I helped a friend assess the hi-fi collection of his late uncle. The gem of the collection appears to be a pair of HL-P3s, bought in 1992.

                          I'm normally a panel speaker guy, but as my elderly maggies (SMGa) need a bit of attention I've borrowed the P3s - and was delighted to find the same sort of not-impressive-but-rewarding sound values.

                          Temptation is setting in... but sensitivity, impedance, and bank account levels are low.
                          (a) Can I realistically expect our Quad 303 to cope with these?
                          (b) What would be the fair value of the P3s (not sure if it is OK to ask here - if not please ignore)?

                          The musical menu is mostly music is jazz, classical, Brazilian bossa nova & light samba.
                          Speakers are boxed but one of them has a big horizontal scratch on its side.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Harbeth HL-P3ES2 specific

                            Originally posted by honmanm View Post
                            HL-P3 amp matching and fair value.

                            Temptation is setting in... but sensitivity, impedance, and bank account levels are low.
                            (a) Can I realistically expect our Quad 303 to cope with these?
                            (b) What would be the fair value of the P3s (not sure if it is OK to ask here - if not please ignore)?

                            The musical menu is mostly music is jazz, classical, Brazilian bossa nova & light samba.
                            Speakers are boxed but one of them has a big horizontal scratch on its side.
                            The Quad 303 will be fine with the P3, unless you are in a very big room, listen from quite far from the speaker or prefer to listen loudly (or any combination of the above). Cannot help you with the price.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Bought new/boxed/unopened P3ES-2's

                              Hi, had a nice story about my stereoset and my new P3ES-2's, Eucalytus, 30th Anniversary.
                              Posting didn't work (not logged in?), forgot to copy, thus sorry, but this is it. :-( :-(

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                P3ES2s sound great

                                My sytem consists(ed) of Cyrus electronics, RegaTT, GrahamSlee phonoamp, DNM SolidCore cable and JMReynaud Emeraude speakers (big floorstanders with transmissionline).
                                I must add that I also did use all Furutech powerstuff (oh yes expensive) from wallsocket to 6x extensionblock to all electronics.
                                All sounded pretty fine in the end, so ready we were...........................;-)

                                But in december I am going to move to an appartment(not small) and yes > neighbours and WAF! Thus I decided to go simpler, smaller, with less connections all around, but .... also to keep the soundbalance and -quality at a highest possible level.

                                First moves were made by selling my speakers and all Furutechstuff in 1 sale, about 3 weeks ago. Already had my eye on Harbeth, decided to go VERY small and a few days later I bought these P3's.

                                Heard both ESR's and ES2's, but the combination of sound/costs made me choose for the ES2's. I personally found the ES2's (but IMO!!) somewhat more realistic sounding at the end of expensive Naim equipment!

                                No stands ATM, so in a large bookshelfrack for the time being.

                                Ordered some 6x"Naim"extensionblock from MusicLine(Naim disributer Germany) and also a standard Naim powerlead (I read a lot about different sounding standard powerleads from Naim and Linn) I fooled around with the freebee powerleads from Cyrus, Naims and others I already had at home. Found a good combination with the right sound ATM and I am happy so far with the results.

                                Now from Cyrus pre/power/psx to integrated or combi >>> Naim?????????Arcam(withMM)?????

                                Any way I am glad about the ES2's going out of the way >> always sounding NOT there? Grtz Han

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