Suggested amplifier for P3ESR (any will work)

[pablozz]

hi all, I am convinced to buy my first hifi...it will based on a couple of P3ESR.

I prefer to listen classical (piano) music and rock. I would like to have clean, clear sound with more pushing on the medium/high frequencies than on low frequencies.

please can you suggest me the best amplifier? (no more expensive than 1.000 euro if it is possible).

how will it combine with for example myryad z142?

many thanks

[pablozz]

Does anybody of you already tried p3esr with exposure 2010? or myryad z142? thanks

[pablozz]

I all unfortunately I am not receiving any feedback. Sorry but this is my first experience in Harbeth.

During these days I tried to connect P3ESR with a VACUUM TUBE stereo integrated amplifier AUDIOSPACE GALAXY 34. does anybody already tried these combination? do you suggest a better combination? thanks

{Moderator's comment: the lack of response could be that we have stated here many times that Harbeth will work well with ANY competently designed amp working to original spec. Therefore, you should expect this combo to work well.}

[keithwwk]

Hi pablozz,

Welcome to HUG. I am perhaps the last person to answer you because I am disconnected from hifi market for some time after I settle down with my Harbeth/LFD combo in yr 2009. Between exposure and myryad I personally prefer exposure based on my previous experience and I do not hear it with P3ESR till now.

Have you tried all mentioned amps with the P3ESR yourself? You should choose either one of them if the combination sound good to you regardless how other comments good or bad.

[Lorpuris]

I bought a pair of P3ESR speakers when they first came out. At the time I owned a LFD amp. It was just OK. I borrowed a Luxman 550 and that was much better but still no magic. I took a deep breath and borrowed a Luxman 590. OK, that was magic ! I am still using that combo today. The Luxman 590 is almost $10,000.00 USD but 2 years latter and it still rocks my world. The point I am making is to buy an amp that makes the speakers come to life ! No regrets!! Life is too short !

[EricW]

Pablozz:

As the moderator has stated, this subject has been covered very extensively in past threads, and it's likely that no one really wants to go over that ground again.

Basically, Harbeth's position as I understand it is that all of their speakers are carefully and specifically designed to present an "easy" electrical load to the amplifier - click on the "Products" link and then go to "F.A.Q.", answer 5(b) - so that any reasonably good quality amplifier will drive the speakers without any difficulty at all. Based on my own limited experience, this is true and not just sales talk: I've driven my P3ESRs with three very different amplifiers rated from between 20 to 100 watts per channel, and they have sounded equally excellent with all three. I've heard other models of Harbeth driven both by extremely modest and extremely expensive amplification - perhaps the expensive amplification sounded a little bit better, but with the lights out and a drink in your hand, I'm not sure you'd notice the difference.

A corollary of Harbeth's view of the world is that there's little or sonic difference between amplifiers (unless they're truly bad or out of spec) if you equalize listening levels and compare blind. If one starts as an "audiophile" by inclination, that may be a hard view to come around to, because the audio press will go into exquisite detail about minute differences between things like amplifiers. You should do your own listening, and take everything anyone else says with a grain of salt.

If you still want recommendations, integrated amps that seem to consistently receive favourable mentions on this board are the new Rega Brio R, the Naim Nait 5i and XS, the Rogue Audio Chronos, and - if your budget can stretch to it - the LFD. There are doubtless many others. Good luck choosing, but don't worry about your choice too much - the important thing is that you have the right speakers: the rest is easy by comparison.

Eric

[pablozz]

hi all, thanks for reply.

I tried p3es2 (my friend) with amplifier myryad z142 and last also with VACUUM TUBE stereo integrated amplifier AUDIOSPACE GALAXY 34.

I understood that p3esr are very very good. But amplifier is fundamental. I found a different sound with AUDIOSPACE, with more focus on bass frequencies.

Now I want to order new P3ESR.

I would like also to hear with exposure 2010s2 but I think it will be similar to myryad.

IMPORTANT: does anyone of you already tried P3ESR (or other Harbeth) with a VACUUM TUBE AMPLIFIER? what is you suggestion?

thanks, regards

[hifi_dave]

I've used quite a few valve based amps including Quad, Leak and Radford vintage.

Currently, I regularly use Puresound A30, EAR and many Croft designs which are truly excellent and very good value.

[cornelius]

IMO Simaudio works well with P3's. I went from a Cyrus 8vs to an old Simaudio i-3. I was not expecting to hear a difference, but a friend gave me the amp, so I tried it. Glad I did, because I much prefer the i-3...

[pablozz]

hi, what do you think on the combination (AMPLIFIER) AUDIOSPACE GALAXY 34 + (CD) ADVANCE ACOUSTIC MCD 204 ??

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/aud...-922833/review
http://www.audiospace.com.hk/detail....o=4&PageSize=1
thanks!

[Art K]

I have a suggestion. Either go out and listen to something or buy one of the products in question and listen to it. No one here at HUG can listen with your ears, preferences and gear. You are not going to get the answer you are looking for. It's simple, Harbeth speakers work well with any well designed amplifier.

That said some of those amplifiers will sound different than each other through Harbeth (or any other) speakers. Variables such as which source you are using, your room and etc along with the fact that we are not likely to speak a common language when describing what we hear means that it is impossible to recommend any one amp for Harbeth speakers as "best". That will depend on you which you believe is the "best" for you after you listen.

{Moderator's comment: we note that this non-question of which-amp-which-speaker is being asked over and over again. As Art K says, HUG members cannot be expected to give reliable advice. ANY COMPETENTLY DESIGNED AMP WORKING TO ORIGINAL SPEC WILL WORK WITH HARBETHS -please don't ask this question.}

[Heretic]

I drive my P3ESRs with a Krell behemoth. The results are nothing short of Magical.

[denjo]

You are in a good place with Harbeth P3s. The speakers are unfussy and relatively easy to drive. We all hear differently so it would be difficult to base your decision on what others have heard. The best thing is to listen to the amplifiers yourself and let your ears be the judge!

[pablozz]

ok thanks all for your suggestions, bye

[A.S.]

The question of 'will this amp work with these speakers?' seems to have a life of its own. I just cannot fathom out why there is so much anxiety about grabbing any competent amp and hooking it up to your Harbeths and making great music.

It seems to me that the fundamental essence of a good amp, well designed and working to original specification is that it must be relatively load-independent and the essence of a good, well designed speaker is that it must be amplifier-independent. So what's the anxiety about then? Who has planted the fear in the minds of an entire generation of hifi consumers that the amp/speaker interface is super-critical to the musical experience? With Harbeth it isn't.

Let's consider this from an entirely business oriented, profit motive. It takes about the same amount of development time to design a speaker which presents an easy load to the amplifier as a difficult load. It takes about the same amount of time to design an amplifier that can cope with a wider range of speaker electrical loads as one which is only able to tolerate a narrow range. So, as business people looking to maximise our sales of speakers why would we be so stupid as to narrow the market by designing our speakers to have a difficult amplifier-dependedent load? We'd be completely barmy to do so.

To maximise our sales and profits and give total customer satisfaction we have made sure at the design stage that our speakers present an easy electrical load to any, competently designed hifi amplifier working within specification. That's the path to expanding sales. Any other design route is just sheer madness - unless the cunning plan is to sell your own fancy amp with your difficult to drive speakers.

[Kumar Kane]

The question of 'will this amp work with these speakers?' seems to have a life of its own. I just cannot fathom out why there is so much anxiety about grabbing any competent amp and hooking it up to your Harbeths and making great music.

It takes about the same amount of development time to design a speaker which presents an easy load to the amplifier as a difficult load.

Alan, it isn't anxiety - or, if it is, it is of a kind that audiophiles love and is almost a raison d'être for the hobby itself! After all, if I could go and buy just about any decent amp, where is the fun?! And then too, where is the route to being satisfied that my system is better than that of the guy next door, or the one I myself had till I got my unique new amp, selected after hours of research, comparing specs and features, reading reviews in hi end audio magazines, with language about things like air, decay, slam, timing and the like!!

Never mind that this satisfaction is as ephemeral as in buying any other bright shiny object? It lasts for very little time, until the next bright shiny object catches the fancy. It is this striving that underpins the audiophile hobby, and you want to kick away the supporting plank of it?!:-)

Don't misunderstand me, there is nothing wrong with the hobby, as hobbies go, this one is quite benign, except to the bank balance. And pursued with some balance ( terrible pun, sorry!), it can afford years of enjoyment, with little to do with the music itself. And it can take some years to get the self awareness to realize it for what it is - one can then pursue it nonetheless, but it does then feel silly to do so. But you don't want to be the one to take boys toys away from them, do you?:-))

On the development time point, I was surprised to read your statement. I would have thought that the engineering it takes to design a speaker with a good voice without it being a challenging load to the amplifier would be more than where all one is looking at is the speaker voicing, with little consideration to the kind of load the design will present. There are some pretty good speakers that are well known to sing only with powerful amplifiers to drive them to do so. Not because they are designed to need the power, but - I guess - because this aspect wasn't a part of the design brief. Is there something I am missing, in thinking this way?

[A.S.]

... Never mind that this satisfaction is as ephemeral as in buying any other bright shiny object? It lasts for very little time, until the next bright shiny object catches the fancy...

... I would have thought that the engineering it takes to design a speaker with a good voice without it being a challenging load to the amplifier would be more than where all one is looking at is the speaker voicing, with little consideration to the kind of load the design will present. There are some pretty good speakers that are well known to sing only with powerful amplifiers to drive them to do so. Not because they are designed to need the power, but - I guess - because this aspect wasn't a part of the design brief. Is there something I am missing, in thinking this way?

I was making a generalisation, but now I'll have to think this through and justify myself! Where to start ...

The electrical load (the impedance) that ths speaker presents to the amplifier is highly non-linear. That means that although a single number has to be published in the sales brochure such as '8 ohm' or '15 ohm' that is a huge simplification. In practice, taking a speaker with a published 8 ohm specification, the impedance at frequency X may drop to (say) 4.5 ohms yet at frequency 3X may be 50 ohms - more than ten times greater. Associated with those impedance variations are phase shifts. That's a fancy way of saying that at some frequencies the speaker will be (much) more power hungry than at others.

Does that matter? Should we be concerned about the variation in power demanded by the speaker across the audio band from its amplifier? Yes and no. To make a judgement about how difficult the speaker load would be in practice with real music not in the lab with spot frequencies we'd have to look at a plot of the impedance across the audio band. Then we'd have to consider the type of music being played (and how loud). If we could guarantee that the user listened exclusively to the Chinese dizi flute the speaker designer could take a view that since there is no bass output from that instrument even if the speaker inmpedance dropped horribly low - say, 1ohm, a virtual short circuit - no problem. The instrument can't produce bass notes, the recording will have no bass and bass notes will never be demanded from the amp. But what if the consumer is an orchestral music fan? Lots of bass there and note carefully, the spectral balance of western orchestral music is tilted in favour of the bass/midrange. So a low speaker impedance in the hundered of Hz midband where orchestral (and pop) music have a lot of energy could present a serious electrical load problem to the amp.

But the actual speaker 20Hz to 20kHz impedance plot isn't a secret that the poor speaker designer discovers only when he's 'voiced' the speaker to his satisfaction after days/weeks/months of careful listening and signed-off the design brief. The impedance plot is available at the touch of a button, any time of the day or night. It's not difficult to measure even with very basic equipment. It shouldn't be a surprise to any competent speaker designer that his ongoing design is heading towards a dangerously low impedance that could/would/will mean that his marketing department are going to have to explain why his new speaker design only works with a limited range of (powerful, expensive) amplifiers.

As for voicing etc.. I was intending to convey that it's easy to have two measurement systems side by side permanently hooked up to the speaker under design in the lab.. One reveals frequency response and the other impedance. The designer should be primarily watching the frequency response curves and the marketing department the impedance curve. When the impedance drops too low after consideration of the type of music the listener enjoys, a siren should sound in the marketing dept. and a small but painful electric shock be applied to the designer's chair to bring him back to his commercial senses.

Complex or difficult speaker loads are a sales disincentive in what is a challenging enough marketplace.

[Kumar Kane]

I was making a generalisation, but now I'll have to think this through and justify myself! Where to start ...[/I]

Would not speaker sensitivity also play a part here? I am generally ignorant about all things electrical, so I may be completely wrong...

One does read about speakers that are reputedly brilliant but only when fed a lot of amplifier power ( current? ) to wake up and sing. I won't name brands, but there is one British high end speaker line that has this feature as a house characteristic for its passive speakers. I think they are at the same price points as Harbeths.

[Kumar Kane]

Complex or difficult speaker loads are a sales disincentive in what is a challenging enough marketplace.

We are way off the topic now, but still a related subject.

I get a feeling that some speaker lines may have made a virtue of this trait (vice?), of thereby being of a quality standard that can be only met by complex, powerful amplifiers!

In the high end audio market, any thing will fly, albeit in limited volumes. Which then leads to crazier price points to capture enough profit to survive.

[A.S.]

Sensitivity is yet another issue.

You are suggesting that a car manufacturer could expand his business by designing cars of which the steering is so heavy that his cars only suited muscle bound brutes straight out of body building contests! He wouldn't deserve to find a market.

I have no idea who you refer to (and I'm not seeking your comment) but can you tell me what commercial motives would drive certain speaker brands to put a deliberate technical impediment in the way of expanding their sales to consumers who are quite satisfield with their existing 'normal' amplification? Sounds to me like commercial suicide.

It seems crystal clear to me wearing both the designer's and the marketeer's hats: every effort should be made by the designer - regardless of how much mental effort or time he needs to expend to work-around technical issues - to eliminate all technical hurdles that stand in the way of making sales. That's the way to grow your business. Design once. Design right. Design to satisfy the consumer with even only modest driving electronics. And yes, that may take man years not man months.