Harbeth HL Compact 7ES-3 specific

[hifi_dave]

It's not 'a waste of money' to buy a good amplifier but good amplifiers needn't be expensive.

{Moderator's comment: "Good amps" will also be better engineered using better components and may well have a longer useful life. 'Quality' above the most basic level costs money and one way or another you have to pay.}

[Kumar Kane]

It's not 'a waste of money' to buy a good amplifier but good amplifiers needn't be expensive.

{Moderator's comment: "Good amps" will also be better engineered using better components and may well have a longer useful life. 'Quality' above the most basic level costs money and one way or another you have to pay.}

On the other hand, beyond a certain level, all that one is paying for is brand name and eye candy, is what I have come to realize. For a speaker of the driving load of the C7, what would be the current price point in GBP which would deliver the necessary quality of amplified current to one speaker pair and have a long life of say, 10 years? Assuming that one is looking for a solid state amplifier, without any other additions such as a phone input or a DAC, my guess would be around 500 GBP. Is that a fair assessment?

[george_k]

Thanks for responding George....What kind of music do you listen to ? Also at what volume level of the amp is it too loud for you to listen to?

I listen to rock mainly, 80s pop, and a little bit of everything else (jazz, classical, etc). My room is fairly big (18.5 feet wide, 21 feet long) and it opens up into a small kitchen and hallway so I got a lot of space to fill. With that kind of space to fill in mind, turning up the volume knob more than halfway would be too loud for me (i.e. > 90dB at the listening location). I generally enjoy listening at quieter levels though.

[hifi_dave]

IMO, the 'giant killer' at £480 is the newly introduced Rega Brio R, which includes an excellent internal MM phono stage. It sounds excellent through all the Harbeth range and is a very neat looking, 55 wpc, well put together amp, which sounds better than some £3K amps I won't mention !!!

[muypogi]

On the other hand, beyond a certain level, all that one is paying for is brand name and eye candy, is what I have come to realize. For a speaker of the driving load of the C7, what would be the current price point in GBP which would deliver the necessary quality of amplified current to one speaker pair and have a long life of say, 10 years? Assuming that one is looking for a solid state amplifier, without any other additions such as a phone input or a DAC, my guess would be around 500 GBP. Is that a fair assessment?

I would raise that limit a bit. I have a Compact 7 being driven by a Harman Kardon HK990 with a Rega DAC and fono stage. If you want an all in one package you can get just the HK990, about GBP1000 or less, and it has MM/MC stage, dual AD1955 DACs, balanced input, 2 subwoofer outs and a very conservative 150wpc at 8 ohms, doubling to 300wpc at 4 ohms. You can't find a better amp for the money and the features.

[Kumar Kane]

I would raise that limit a bit. I have a Compact 7 being driven by a Harman Kardon HK990 with a Rega DAC and fono stage. If you want an all in one package you can get just the HK990, about GBP1000 or less, and it has MM/MC stage, dual AD1955 DACs, balanced input, 2 subwoofer outs and a very conservative 150wpc at 8 ohms, doubling to 300wpc at 4 ohms. You can't find a better amp for the money and the features.

I don't know that amp, but HK makes good products generally, so I am sure it is a great amp. I had asked the question to set a benchmark guidance price level at which "good enough" quality amplification is available. And to allow for an apples to apples comparison it then becomes necessary to look at a device that does just pure 2 channel amplification of line level inputs to a level necessary to drive the C7 load successfully.

To be honest, I think that even budget ss amplifiers from brands such as NAD/Cambridge/Rotel and many others, that cost less than 500 GBP, are good enough. The money saved can then be spent on acoustics, music, or other things that matter to each person, depending on individual priorities.
Of course if one also needs a phono stage, or a built in DAC, that would mean a higher spend.

[Will]

Is it just the camera angles, or does the picture of the C7-ES3 (in the photograph linked to below) look like it has a different tweeter? Doesn't look like there's a tweeter grill. If they removed the grill, then the balance would be off since the grill has a small "disc" in the centre that's integral to the sound of the speaker. Unless (I'm drooling already) it has the Seas Excel tweeter used in the M40.1! A prototype for Harbeth's upcoming 35th Anniversary in 2012?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/h...151lfd151stein

{Moderator's comment: someone has, without our consent or knowledge, removed the protective grille from the C7ES2 (or 3?) tweeter. Surely a crazy action. Not only is the diaphragm now open to tiny fingers the HF response *has been reduced*. This makes no sense to us at all.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE TWEETER GRILLE. THE TELL-TALE EVIDENCE WILL TOTALLY NULLIFY YOUR WARRANTY. REMOVING THE GRILLE WILL DEGRADE PERFORMANCE NOT INCREASE IT - FACT.}

[A.S.]

Is it just the camera angles, or does the picture of the C7-ES3 (in the photograph linked to below) look like it has a different tweeter? ...

I am speechless. To reiterate what has long ago been said here .... a speaker manufacturer either sees his spare part operation as a vital part of his business model, contributing significantly to the bottom line profit or he sees it as a time consuming activity which by use of better design/materials/suppliers/testing can be virtually eliminated. It's as basic as a matter of respect for the customer and an appreciation of human nature.

Our view is that tweeter diaphragms will attract curious fingers especially at a public exhibition. I've even found myself stroking naked tweeter domes... but I implore you PLEASE do not be so daft as to put your Harbeth speakers at risk by peeling-off the protective tweeter grille. The grille is there for a reason - to save you much money and stress because spare parts are expensive and take time to deliver.


We will establish the back-story on this but I can assure you that nobody in the Harbeth organisation will have removed these grilles. And if they have, we'll that's the end of the road.

[A.S.]

One thing to point out .... it may be counter-intuitive to you but if you remove the grille the tweeter's HF response will not increase in output, it will droop as you can see from the attached.

Note, the with-grille red line is normalised to 0dB to highlight the contrast between with and without grille to show the relative difference.

>

[Spindrift]

Perhaps someone wanted to 'soften up' the system's character and chose this mod as the way to do so... A drastic measure.

Not only does the metal grille protect the fragile dome (the aluminium membrane is incredibly thin), it also holds a transparent dot in front of the dome. This enhances dispersion but also increases the relative HF level - which will have been taken into account during design. The same dot can be found behind the protective grille of P3's, including the ESR model.

This mod will therefore have altered the lateral dispersion. The metal grilles are part of the design. When removed the overall balance chosen by the designer will be lost.

In fact the cloth-covered Supergrille was also part of the design considerations and if I am correct, Mr. Shaw has pointed out before that using Harbeths with Supergrilles attached will give the smoothest freq. response.

-Mr. Shaw, may I ask by how much the HF and/or upper mids will be damped if the Supergrilles are in place?

I have a feeling the Supergrille cloth helps to get a more coherent presentation.

[Don Jr]

Being a new C7-ES3 owner (and 32 years of other speakers), I have never touched my speakers with the exception of a soft dusting cloth. I've never removed grilles either. It's beyond me why someone would chose to alter a speaker that's design is based on possibly many years of R&D and huge sums of money.

[Don Jr]

Hello all. Do most C7 owners prefer the 4 ohm or 8 ohm of their amplifiers? I've been using 8 ohm and it sounds fine to me. Is there any reason to believe it would be somehow better using the 4 ohm connection?

[Macjager]

Currently I use the 4 ohm taps, as I find that the music sounds a bit better, but then again it may be all psycoacoustics...

george

[hifi_dave]

The various amps sound slightly different when using 4 or 8 ohm taps but it is amplifier dependant, so no firm advice can be given.

All I would suggest is that you suck it and see.

[Don Jr]

The web site states 4 mm binding posts on the C7. Is that the diameter of the hole for bare wire? I bought Audioquest Rockefeller cables with spades at the speaker end and the spades were too small to fit the posts. The spades are rated for 1/4" & 5/16" posts. It's not the end of the world as I replaced the ends with bananas. Just wondered if anyone else is using spade connectors or if anyone has run into this?

[Jason]

The web site states 4 mm binding posts on the C7. Is that the diameter of the hole for bare wire? I bought Audioquest Rockefeller cables with spades at the speaker end and the spades were too small to fit the posts. The spades are rated for 1/4" & 5/16" posts. It's not the end of the world as I replaced the ends with bananas. Just wondered if anyone else is using spade connectors or if anyone has run into this?

Hi Don Jr, 4 mm is the banana hole diameter size, I use a 9mm gapped spade to match with the Harbeth speaker terminals.