Subwoofer poll

[John Parkyn]

Is it a good idea to link Harbeths to subwoofers?

Is it a particularly good idea to link smaller Harbeths to subs?

Perhaps you've tried linking subs to Harbeths. What was the result?

What about linking to two subs?

Are there Harbeth-friendly subs? Harbeth non-friendly subs?

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Since writing the original post I have come across a discussion of subwoofers in the FAQ (Q.16) of the main Harbeth site (www.harbeth.co.uk).

This discusssion may make this post redundant.

[Groovetracer]

I use 2 Rel Storm III subs with my M30's.

[Paul G Smith]

I'm buying two B&W ASW750s when I move house.
At the moment I have two Volt 10" drivers built in to a partition wall with a 7cu Ft brick enclosure to each one, driven with separate power amps and a dedicated crossover (Behringer).
I just hope that the B&Ws will be as tight as the bi-amplified volts! I do love extended bass and I think it will be very difficult to match the sensation of being in the concert hall or cathedral that I get with "structural" bass.

[northwoods_maine]

Poll results are interesting, but would like to hear more feedback from those who think they've had good success with subs/Harbeths. I'm personally interested in what subs you've been successful pairing with Super 5s?

[Daniele Giometti]

I use 2 Rel Storm III subs with my M30's.

I'm quite curious about that: I didn't think M30s need a sub (even less 2 subs !).
Why did you decide to use subs ? Did you feel a lack in the lower frequencies ?
It would be very interesting to me to read a brief review form you on how your setup sounds (and don't forget the dimensions of your listening room ! :-))
I know: many questions, I apologize for that.
thanks
daniele

[Paul G Smith]

Sorry for such a late reply, but I was involved in leaving my job, selling the house and moving here to France!
In the UK listening room 4.7m x 4.7m x 2.3m the wall-installed subs were built to help me to enjoy organ recordings. They extended the bass down to around bottom F which improved the overall sound but due to my crude attempt at an active crossover, fell short of my ideal. I don't have that problem with the B&Ws and my new Bryston Amplification.
In the French house, the room is not much different in volume being wider but less deep and has a much "brighter" acoustic. It has a suspended wooden floor instead of the UK concrete. This makes the floor almost acoustically transparent to deep bass, which can be felt as well as heard. With the ASW750s there is a reasonable output down to around bottom D which is fairly awesome at times!
The quality of the extreme bass is very good, there being very little "hangover" on transients which allows a good reproduction of orchestral bass drum and suchlike, and of course 32 foot organ pipes! The built-in crossover in the ASWs I've set at 80Hz which seems to work very well. and until something very deep sounds, the subs are un-noticeable.
The integration between the Harbeths and the B&Ws seems, to my ears which are ageing a little now, very good.

[Paul G Smith]

A little later still perhaps, but after having lived with the ASW750s for 18 months, them sitting on the floor, I decided I could improve the clarity of the bottom end by wall-mounting the subs. This is to decouple them from the wooden suspended floor which shook more than the air the subs are supposed to shift!
I had previously bought a wall-mounted turntable shelf from Apollo hifi furniture and thought a couple of these would do the job. They will support 45Kg and are fastened with 6 6mm bolts to the wall ( see profile pic)
I now have two wall-mounted subs which sound even better than before. All bass instruments, kick drums, orchestral drums, tom-toms etc. have their own individual timbres and those 32 foot organ pipes are stunning in their realism and all in a room 5m x 4m.

[trh8654]

I am using a REL R505 with my SHL5 speakers. great pairing. Would not go back to life without the sub. I Took about two hours to get it dialed in and have not touched it since.

[ryder]

I have matched a PMC sub with my SHL-5 and liked the results. The sub made a subtle but appreciable difference to my ears. It depends a lot on the type of music we listen to. On certain types of music the sub is not necessary as the SHL-5 is already quite excellent on its own in reproducing deep bass notes, full and tight.

[John Geisen]

In my listening environment with the music I prefer, which includes classical symphony, I have not found a sub adds additional enjoyment or better communication of the performance. I suspect we are all different in this regard.

John Geisen

[coredump]

Recently, I listened to a setup integrated with a Rel R505 12" 500W digital. I was overwhelmed by it. Hence, thought of getting a REL R205 10" to partner my SHL5. Back to home, found my setup laid back, warm and gentle sounding.. I suppose it could also be due to Marantz player which is said to be a warm and moderate player. eventually, I prefer my own setup

other than timing and matching, what other consideration shld i take note? on certain CD / track, my room do boom, coupled with a sub-woofer, will it boom further. Any comments on REL R205 with SHL5? TIA


The following thread that I've read with great interest
thread by Mr Paul G Smith


found a video clips on REL

[trh8654]

Recently, I listened to a setup integrated with a Rel R505 12" 500W digital. I was overwhelmed by it. Hence, thought of getting a REL R205 10" to partner my SHL5. Back to home, found my setup laid back, warm and gentle sounding.. I suppose it could also be due to Marantz player which is said to be a warm and moderate player. eventually, I prefer my own setup

other than timing and matching, what other consideration shld i take note? on certain CD / track, my room do boom, coupled with a sub-woofer, will it boom further. Any comments on REL R205 with SHL5? TIA


The following thread that I've read with great interest
thread by Mr Paul G Smith


found a video clips on REL

I use the R505 with my SHL5s. If you found the 505 to much then it should just be turned down, or adjust the crossover point. Mine is truely seemless in my system. I went back and forth during the 30 days I had to get my money back on it and the system really does sound lacking without it. Besides adding the bass quality and quanity, it has added soundstage depth to the presentation. Good luck with your choice.
BTW, I plan on adding a second sub in the future.

[Paul G Smith]

I use the R505 with my SHL5s. If you found the 505 to much then it should just be turned down, or adjust the crossover point.

As is generally known, bass is less directional than the mid-range and treble, so the placement of the bass source(s) is less significant from the point of view of imaging and soundstage .
The great thing about subs, or put another way a separate bass source, is that they can mitigate some of the problems sometimes found with LS placement. The best position for your speakers for stereo listening is not always the best for clean, smooth, non-boomy bass (or the wife).
This means that it is possible to avoid "room boom", by placing the LF source(s) in a "dead" area for that particular frequency. I don't advocate placing subs too far away from the parent speakers though.
The choice of crossover frequency, level and phase is critical in retaining a smooth response and for avoiding timing problems, which can take the slam out of bass drums.

It's pleasing to see there are other stereo sub users on the group!! Spread the news:-)

[tozen]

I would be interested to learn from those who use a sub whether you feel there are significant improvements over and above deep bass.
I have read that a sub if integrated properly will communicate much more of the ambience on the disk, improving the sound-stage and the realism. Is this true?
I use the SHL5 and I had never seriously considered that I might benefit from a sub.

[Paul G Smith]

I would be interested to learn from those who use a sub whether you feel there are significant improvements over and above deep bass. I have read that a sub if integrated properly will communicate much more of the ambience on the disk, improving the sound-stage and the realism. Is this true? I use the SHL5 and I had never seriously considered that I might benefit from a sub.

That would depend on whether that ambience, which can sometimes be unwanted, has been recorded or not! On pop and speech, this ambient LF is usually removed during the recording but there are many classical and jazz recordings which do benefit from the extra realism. It can be a nuisance too, as many Kingsway Hall recordings have LF rumble from passing underground trains!

A badly set up sub could well exaggerate recording faults which were often inaudible on the recording monitors until the 80s. The rumble filter on earlier phono input hifi amps was designed to remove bass below 50Hz LF, and the RIAA LP cutting standard didn't even consider bass below 30Hz as being recordable! How things have changed.

Gilbert Briggs the designer of the classic 60s Wharfedale speakers had a saying which is true to this day, "the wider you open the door, the more the muck blows in"
Perhaps a partly open door isn't a bad idea?

[trh8654]

I would be interested to learn from those who use a sub whether you feel there are significant improvements over and above deep bass.
I have read that a sub if integrated properly will communicate much more of the ambience on the disk, improving the sound-stage and the realism. Is this true?
I use the SHL5 and I had never seriously considered that I might benefit from a sub.

I stated above that one of the big suprises I got from using a sub was the depth of soundstage. I find this as nice as the added bass.

[tozen]

It was actually your comment that jogged my memory about the other things I had read. I think I should borrow one for home demo at some point to see what sort of difference it makes. I assume that with with the amp+speaker combo I have, LFD +SHL5, it would require a fairly high quality sub to integrate well and avoid the monotonal thumpy bass that the cheaper subs are sometimes accused of?

[Paul G Smith]

I assume that with with the amp+speaker combo I have, LFD +SHL5, it would require a fairly high quality sub to integrate well and avoid the monotonal thumpy bass that the cheaper subs are sometimes accused of?

Your assumption is correct, I feel!!
A proper crossover with variable parameters is a must and this cannot be done passively, and active costs!

[coredump]

what are the other option / method to hook up the sub-woofer? it's because my amplifier doesn't comes with a pre-out?

REL205 doesn't have speaker connection

[Paul G Smith]

does your amp have a tape monitor loop?