View Poll Results: Linking Harbeths to subwoofers

Voters
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  • Have tried linking and liked the result

    10 17.54%
  • Have tried linking and didn't like the results

    7 12.28%
  • Wouldn't dream of linking

    17 29.82%
  • Would like to try linking

    20 35.09%
  • Have linked to two subwoofers

    3 5.26%
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Thread: Subwoofer poll

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    SG
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    214

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G Smith View Post
    does your amp have a tape monitor loop?
    tape output as written in brochures and equipment
    Line output fixed level for tape recorder

    today, i was told by the salesman that a pre-out is appropriate for integrating with sub-woofer. true/false? he didn't bother to hook it up for demo..

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    SW France
    Posts
    84

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    A pre-out (post volume control) output would be needed with the REL I think. After looking at the Lavardin specs the tape output IS fixed and therefore of no use.
    Unless you have a pre-out you would have to use the LS input.
    As a further thought the REL doesn't seem to have a two-into one summing arrangement so you would need TWO REL subs, unless I've missed something somewhere...
    Last edited by Paul G Smith; 24-05-2009 at 02:52 PM. Reason: re-thought after reading the previous post properly!!
    Paul

    "If all else fails, read the instructions"

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    SG
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    214

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G Smith View Post
    A pre-out (post volume control) output would be needed with the REL I think. After looking at the Lavardin specs the tape output IS fixed and therefore of no use.
    Unless you have a pre-out you would have to use the LS input.
    As a further thought the REL doesn't seem to have a two-into one summing arrangement so you would need TWO REL subs, unless I've missed something somewhere...
    Paul, care to explain 'LS input'? my intention is to have a a single sub-woofer.. Thanks for your advise.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    SW France
    Posts
    84

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    Hi Coredump, I have looked again at RELs installation instructions for the R 250. I was wrong to assume that there was no summing arrangement. There was no mention of this in the specifications, but on further reading of the instructions it becomes clearer, and I quote from http://www.rel.net/index2.htm

    "It is helpful to know that you will almost always connect the REL to the input on the rear panel labeled ?Hi Level.? This connection is made using the supplied 34? 10? (10 meters) cable, the bare leads of which connect to the speaker output terminals of the power amplifier. The easy and foolproof connection at the REL is done with a Neutrik Speakon connector."

    What the specifications omit is that this is a 3-pole input.

    "The standard high level hook up procedure is: attach the red wire to the amplifier's right positive speaker output terminal; attach the yellow wire to the amplifier's left positive speaker output terminal; attach the black wire to which ever of the amplifier's ground output terminals is convenient; plug the Speakon connector into the sub's high level input."

    The REL therefore takes a feed from the + terminals of both the Left and Right speaker outputs and a return from a - speaker out. The amplifier in the SUB then adds the bass from both channels to feed to it's driver".

    I am sorry for any confusion I have added due to my haste in replying in the first place, but there again my motto has always been " If all else fails...read the instructions!" I think I'll add that to my forum signature.
    Paul

    "If all else fails, read the instructions"

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    SG
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    214

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    achievable. Thanks very much

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Malaysia
    Posts
    243

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    Quote Originally Posted by tozen View Post
    I think I should borrow one for home demo at some point to see what sort of difference it makes. I assume that with with the amp+speaker combo I have, LFD +SHL5, it would require a fairly high quality sub to integrate well and avoid the monotonal thumpy bass that the cheaper subs are sometimes accused of?
    With the amp you have, I reckon you may not need a sub. I presume the LFD integrated amp you have is the Zero MkIII. I have listened to this amp in my own system driving a pair of SHL-5. Apart from the incredible speed, PRAT, dynamics and tonal accuracy, the bass tone and slam trounced all my other amps flat to the ground. The NVA integrated was completely blown away with its soft and undefined bass, and while the Plinius/ARC did come close it didn't go as deep and taut as the LFD. The bass quality of the LFD is first-rate and belies its dimensions. If your listening space is small you may not need a sub. If your room is fairly big you can try and see the results for yourself. In my 11'x17' room the bass performance of the LFD is fantastic.

    By the way, how do you intend to hook up a sub since the LFD does not have any outputs?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    Well, like yourself I am no longer pursuing the idea of adding a sub. It was just in the back of my mind as I really wanted to maximize the performance of my system within the size and money constraints I have. I agree re. the bass of the LFD Zero III. When I moved from the Quad 909, a very decent amp, to the LFD I immediately noticed that the bass was now a bit deeper, but significantly more controlled and tuneful. It is the way in which the bass keeps tune and pace with the rest of the frequency spectrum that is so pleasing.

  8. #28
    vladvlaz Guest

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    I have the SHL-5 and would say I experienced what Alan talks extensively about on these forums - how subjective our own hearing is.

    My room is about 22sq m and because the apt. is rented there isn't much choice over positioning, speakers are placed along the long wall and I felt they sounded quite lightweight as furniture constraints forces me to place them 1-1.5m away from the wall.

    I also wanted some rumble for movies so I bought the relatively inexpensive SVS SB12-Plus subwoofer (12" driver, closed box - http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-sb12plus.cfm) to add some weight at the bottom.

    I placed it between the speakers as on the photos. First impressions were listening to the sub 10cm away from the driver it sounds quite muddy and doesn't seem to be very musical. I tried placing it next to the wall but that didn't seem to change much so I settled with the sub between the speakers.

    Can you imagine my surprise then that as I began messing about trying to adjust the bass and at some point thought "that's definately too much bass let me turn it down a little" I found out the sub was actually off. Ie, thinking the sub is on made me perceive more bass.

    Having played around for a couple of days I concluded the following (given my placement constraints):
    1. even with my Onkyo AV receiver perceived by some as somewhat lacking, for 75% of the music the sub gives no useful information over the SHL-5s. If it is audible I find I keep turning it down to balance out the music until the sub hardly makes any audible sound.
    I am surprised that the SHL-5s go down so deep as previously I thought the bass was a little light - however, comparing speakers to sub the speakers do provide most of the low frequency information, and there's definately heft behind SHL-5's low end. (Coincidentally the few classical records I tried had less low frequency info than jazz/pop music)
    2. I realise the size and design of the sub do not allow it to have as much weight and to go as low as the large ported models but nonetheless the area where it adds to the listening experience are the frequencies at the low end of its response (+/- 3dB 22Hz-150Hz). These seem to be on the border of audible (ie they're easier to feel as the walls shake or a low hum is produced which is audible in other rooms of the apartment - neighbours probably find this very annoying).
    On a lot of tracks this information is not there but there are some (predominantly pop I found) tracks which do go down deep and the bass on the border of audible does provide an interesting experience, I guess this would also be evident in films (I used George Michael's Spinning the wheel while playing around with the sub).

    I am sorry I ever doubted my SHL-5s. I don't think a sub of this level is a worthwhile addition for listening to classical (it would be necessary to look for a more substantial sub), but I definately like having it for pop/music videos/films.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Subwoofer poll

    I chose the SVS PC - Ultra 13 subwoofer to add the missing 20 - 40 Hz to my SHL5. I decided to do most of the adjustments using the DSP brain in my amp ( lyngdorf TDAI2200 ) rather than using the sub's analog settings. In order to calibrate the set I made a collection of songs rich in bass notes and tried to use the basic adjustments of the Sub and the amplifier and measure the effect. First I tried to determine the correct phase. The tests were conducted using a frequency disk found on the RealTraps website. I then discovered a few things, more and less surprising:
    1. The in - room response curve is far from flat.
    2. One of the components (not yet identified with certainty) in my playback chain is blocking low frequencies below 20 Hz.
    3. The - Harbeth SHL5, with their backs to the wall (to take advantage of the BassDirect method of Lyngdorf), can play frequencies of 20Hz - 30Hz! They do not like it and make an uncharacteristic rattle but they produce these frequencies at listenable levels.
    4. Frequencies in the 20Hz - 30Hz range are excellent for checking loose screws on doors of the house...
    Then I used AVIA-2's calibration disc to try and match the sub level with my SHL5. The company claim this DVD's sound level is calibrated to compensate for differences in sensitivity of the SPL meter at various frequencies, so all that remains is just to set the sub level until the SPL meter shows the same level while the noise is moving alternately from the left speaker to the sub.
    I chose to follow the advice suggested by an experienced local audiophile to leave some overlapping frequency range between all 3 speakers ( most other people advised my to cut the 20 - 40 Hz range from the SHL5 using a High Pass Filter ). I started from a 1st order Butterworth LPF at 80 Hz and finally went down to 70Hz without using a HPF. The result was still problematic, but it was difficult to assess where the problem lies - in the overlap between the SHL5 and the sub and / or in the room. The result was Boomy and far from smooth. Watching films I did not mind so much but playing music I certainly did mind, and I realized it was time to run the RoomPerfect calibrations again on the amp. When there are peaks in the response curve the system would moderate them, and if there are dips Hopefully the sub and the SHL 5 would complement each other. After half an hour of 10 measurements (one in the listening position and nine other around the room, all measurements must be at a distance of at least two feet from the previous position and three feet from the speakers ) the amplifier reached 99% acoustic knowledge and the filters were calculated. The result: all the boominess disappeared, and the three speakers had merged into one coherent unit. The RoomPerfect system does not perform advanced speaker corrections at the same level as that of the advanced home-theater receivers ( which fix the distance, power and phase) but it definitely does a nice job.
    The listening impression is that the SHL5 are much larger. The sound of big drums and strings (eg Depeche Mode's "Death's Door" taken from " Until the end of World "soundtrack by Wim Weders) sounds as low as ever, without any effort. I feel there is even a certain improvement in the midrange frequencies of the front SHL 5. Since I did not activated a HPF, the RoomPerfect actually divides the power of the low frequencies below 70 Hz between the front speakers and the sub so both the SHL 5 ( and the amplifier ) strain less in an area at which they are less capable. In movies of course the experience is totally different from anything I had known so far, adding another dimension resulting in a more the realistic viewing experience .
    I have to add that without the DSP and room correction capabilities of my lyngdorf TDAI2200 adding the sub to my main speakers would have been almost an impossible mission.

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