New Harbeth P3ESR

[A.S.]

...I'd be inclined to wall-mount a centre speaker, just above the screen, or perhaps below ... I'd be happy with the P3 size, but the market may want something bigger.

Now that really does surprise me. You'd want or accept a speaker bigger than the P3 for a centre channel but you say that you'd probably mount the TV on the wall? Sticking out 250mm or so from the wall? I just don't see that as market viable. Surely the centre channel will have to be as thin (or almost as thin) as the panel TV itself? I'm having great difficulty imagining a wife tolerating a centre channel speaker protruding off the wall and into the room*.

It is absolutely vital that we determine the dimensions of this centre channel speaker.

* It's our 30th anniversary tomorrow and I think I have a fair idea about the WAF of such a solution.

[pranderos]

Now that really does surprise me. You'd want or accept a speaker bigger than the P3 for a centre channel but you say that you'd probably mount the TV on the wall? Sticking out 250mm or so from the wall? I just don't see that as market viable. Surely the centre channel will have to be as thin (or almost as thin) as the panel TV itself? I'm having great difficulty imagining a wife tolerating a centre channel speaker protruding off the wall and into the room*....

Mr. Shaw, I can only speak for the WAF in my own household, that is challenge enough. But in my den, where I was picturing this application, I am accorded a certain leeway. Since my side speakers (P3ES2s) are already on stands about 40 cm out from the wall, I have no conceptual difficulty with a centre speaker mounted anywhere up to a comparable distance from the wall.

Personally, I'd prefer a speaker box comparable in volume to the P3; I simply thought many who own larger Harbeths would be inclined to want your larger woofer, or perhaps two, in their centre. I would not be looking for a thin speaker; if you can get sound as good as a P3 out of a flattened speaker, more power to you Sir.

In the interests of transparency, I don't have a flat panel TV yet; I'm still watching my antique picture tube model, so the screen itself is also a good 40 cm out from the wall, the TV on a stand. I'd rather get a nice centre speaker first, but when I get around to acquiring a flat panel, I wouldn't necessarily look to mounting it nearly flush to the wall. Many do I suppose, but even flat panels are still mounted on suitable stands or cabinets.

Perhaps all of this is too idiosyncratic to help you much with your market testing....

[A.S.]

Even more good feedback - many thanks! All feedback and comments are most gratefully received here.

If you do make further comments about Centre Channel speakers please do it here not in this thread. That helps me to keep all feedback in one place.

[A.S.]

... from a tiny box. Some factors relating to the painstaking analysis and optimising of the Harbeth designed and made 5" woofer are covered here and here.

The design challenges are exactly the same for a small box like the P3 and for a centre channel, so the design process is identical.

[rockadelic]

Hello to all,
I heard from my Harbeth dealer that there was a review conducted by a magazine between the stirling broadcast & the P3ESR recently, and the conclusion was that P3ESR edged out the stirlings. Any confirmation on it? And if so, what were the actual details of the outcome? Cheers!

[harbethpr]

Surely no such review can have been undertaken. We would know about it from here and authorise it from here at HQ. Maybe the review was the P3ES2? I think it may have been. When we are in production of course we will authorise and release P3ESR for review. It really should be no surprise that a Harbeth-made RADIAL woofer which Alan has been working on for some years beats a stock polypropylene driver!

There is a pair of production grade P3ESR at Harbeth Japan which has been an exceptionally good market for Harbeth since our second year of trading in 1978 (31 years ago) with a very big customer base. Eventually that pair will be reviewed, but not yet.

Our sales/production staff tell me they are concerned that some markets have not planned for the new P3ESR. Even this morning for example an export customer suddenly woke up and realised that he'd forgotten to order P3ESR and asked for immediate delivery. Sadly, that's not possible and we had to break the news that the earliest date for new, unplanned orders is 12-16 weeks from today.

Just as we start production with a substantial order backlog to clear not the time to be overstimulating demand with unplanned reviews I think you'll agree.

[garmtz]

Hello to all,
I heard from my Harbeth dealer that there was a review conducted by a magazine between the stirling broadcast & the P3ESR recently, and the conclusion was that P3ESR edged out the stirlings. Any confirmation on it? And if so, what were the actual details of the outcome? Cheers!

I think it was the 2001 LS3/5a shootout in Hifi News (see attachment), conducted with an older type Harbeth P3/LS3.5a.

[Lorpuris]

Harbethpr,

I just picked myself off the floor. Imagine that you are the Harbeth importer in that unnamed country, responsible for a sizable number of dealers. The alarm clock goes at 7:15 AM, and suddenly the unnamed importer recounts the latest stocking order.... Hmm lets see... 4 pr. M 40.1, 5 pr. M30, 6 pr. M 20, 8 pr.HL5, 10 pr. Compact 7ES-3, and 6 pr. P3ES-2. Yep that ought to do it. Oh wait a minute.. Oh $%&@# !!!

Then that horrible sick feeling comes over, followed by a cold sweat. It will be 3 to 4 months before anyone in that region takes delivery on the hottest small speaker right now, period. And that is the best case scenario.

I feel bad for all the people that must wait, and I feel bad for Harbeth.

Peace,
Lorpuris

[A.S.]

I'll answer this one.

We publicly, not secretly, announced the P3ESR in January 09 at THE Show, Las Vegas. It was immediately written-up here in the Harbeth User Group. It is unprecedented that a commercial business like Harbeth should feel so confident about a new product that it is willing to discuss the entire position in public, and to alert 'competitors' to our marketing plans and timescales. That's what we have been doing for six months now.

The CES announcements were immediately followed by a Price List and coverage in several public Newsletters and private ones to our sales channel and here. I personally, at every point of contact with trade customers (such as at the Munich show last month) have urged them to be sure that they have enough orders placed on us for what is, as you say, a 'hot product'.

We've been taking orders since immediately after the CES in January*. The initial production date was April, but as has been covered here, that was revised to June. So, we now have six months of orders to chomp our way through, in strict sequence. I really can't see what else Harbeth can or should do: we've offered the product, priced it, accepted and confirmed orders and will deliver to those confirmations in the quantity, quality and veneer choices ordered.

Frankly, I still wonder if our sales channels fully understand the significance of this model and it's performance capabilities - and the likely demand. Fortunately for them, we do: and we have laid down a huge commitment in pre-paid piece-part stock to support production 'putting our money where our mouth is'. This P3ESR is a really astonishing little box as you would expect for the amount of effort I've invested in its design. But Harbeth can only do it's best to keep up with demand, in sequence, order by order. If you have any concerns about delivery in your market please contact your retailer (or importer) to get an accurate picture about deliveries.

I have withheld offering P3ESR for review at this time to be sure that we can clear the back-orders before whipping up even more demand. We don't want to keep loyal Harbeth users waiting longer than absolutely necessary. Thanks for your understanding.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* One factor to remember .... in January 09 the global 'credit crunch' was big news. The global retail trade were unable to judge the effect on general consumer behavior, and specifically in our industry on hi-fi retail sales. Those who had been through economic cycles suspected that sales of a hand made, high quality, long-lived niche product like a Harbeth would be unaffected by economic turbulence - that has proved to be the situation. However, it has resulted in a degree of caution creeping in some markets and a misreading by them of a few months of lower than normal trade as the end of consumerism. Those markets are going to have the greatest difficulty getting back into the Harbeth production queue.

[hifi_dave]

Good things are worth waiting for, as I have discovered since becoming a Harbeth dealer !!!

[Hagto]

I wonder how easy load, for an amplifier, the new P3ESR will be compared to other Harbeth models? My dealer think that the Compact 7ES3 is the one that most benefit much power (not tried 40.1).

What model do you think is the easiest load for small amplifiers of today's Harbeth models?
Thank you.

[A.S.]

Could it be that you just don't believe me when I say, time after time, that I design for an easy load? Please believe me that I do everything in my power and ability to prevent speaker-amp matching problems or never-ending questions about speaker-amp matching. Perhaps you don't believe what I have written here (read point 2) about the design process of the P3ESR? Or here (point 3) in the Overview. Or customer feedback here. Or how I say here (last paragraph) that, and I quote ......

"As I have said here many many times over the years, I am acutely - and I repeat that, acutely aware right through the entire design process that the impedance of a Harbeth must be benign. A Harbeth is designed to be amplifier friendly. It has to have an easy electrical load. It has to work with, as I've said before, 'any competently designed amplifier working to its manufacturers original specification'. That being so, our dealers and distributors can proceed to sell Harbeth to any customer and be confident that they will make a great sound at home with whatever the user already has for amplification."

What do I have to say or do to avoid spending hour after hour restating our position - that we design for an easy load because we don't want to spend the rest of our lives reassuring users about this non-issue.

We are a commercial company. The more speakers we sell to more satisfied customers the more successful we are. We design Harbeth speakers to be an easy electrical load on the user's existing amplifer so that the user does not have to invest in a new expnsive amplifier. He can get great results with his existing amp. Happy users tell their friends and that means we sell more speakers. That's why we deliberately design Harbeth speakers to present an easy electrical load to the user's existing amplifier. Simple as that.

[Hagto]

... I quote ......

"As I have said here many many times over the years, I am acutely - and I repeat that, acutely aware right through the entire design process that the impedance of a Harbeth must be benign. A Harbeth is designed to be amplifier friendly. It has to have an easy electrical load. It has to work with, as I've said before, 'any competently designed amplifier working to its manufacturers original specification'. That being so, our dealers and distributors can proceed to sell Harbeth to any customer and be confident that they will make a great sound at home with whatever the user already has for amplification."....

Thank you for your answer.

I have read all you have written about this. I have at home both the HL5 and the P3ES2. I think that they both are an easy load, but I feel that HL5 is easier than P3ES2.

You have told us that the new P3ESR would be an easier load than the P3ES2. I do not question that Harbeths are not an easy load, I just asked for difference between models.
The reason is that I have plan for a second system with my very small chipamp. I was planning for the new P3ESR but wondered if some of the other models were even more easy for this purpose? Sorry if you misunderstand me.

[A.S.]

In the P3ESR design brief here, point 2 says ....

"2. Design for an easier electrical load on the amplifier = increase the impedance from the P3's 4 ohms to about 6 ohms so that the P3ESR needs less power and a smaller amplifier"

Does that answers the question?

[Hagto]

In the P3ESR design brief here, point 2 says ....

"2. Design for an easier electrical load on the amplifier = increase the impedance from the P3's 4 ohms to about 6 ohms so that the P3ESR needs less power and a smaller amplifier"

Does that answers the question?

I have read that, I just wondered if some of the other models was an even more easy lod than this new P3ESR?
T.

[A.S.]

The electrical load of P3ESR, M40.1, C7ES3, M30, SHL5 is about equal. I've noticed chip ICs being used inside even some upmarket (Scottish made I think) amplifiers. In the Active Circle 5 (8" woofer, similar to C7/M30/SHL5 woofer) made for HHB, we used a TDA chip amp push-pull circuit and it worked extremely well. In fact, at an exhibition I noticed that the fancy amp was using a bank of exactly the same general purpose TDA DMOS output chips as we had!

[Hagto]

The electrical load of P3ESR, M40.1, C7ES3, M30, SHL5 is about equal.

Thank You!
Just what I was asking for.

[A.S.]

Glad to help. Which chips will you actually be using?

[Hagto]

The electrical load of P3ESR, M40.1, C7ES3, M30, SHL5 is about equal. I've noticed chip ICs being used inside even some upmarket (Scottish made I think) amplifiers. In the Active Circle 5 (8" woofer, similar to C7/M30/SHL5 woofer) made for HHB, we used a TDA chip amp push-pull circuit and it worked extremely well. In fact, at an exhibition I noticed that the fancy amp was using a bank of exactly the same general purpose TDA DMOS output chips as we had!

Glad to help. Which chips will you actually be using?

The chip is a national LM3875

[A.S.]

Yes, we considered that one. We selected the TDA (if I remember correctly) because of its advanced anti-thump mute circuitry. That totally eliminated any power-on power-off thump to the speakers: very impressive.