Requesting a Harbeth made subwoofer

[Supersnake]

Requests for a Harbeth made subwoofer have been brought up before...

Good news! And I almost purchased version 2 to replace my Harbeth LS 3/5a. Have you ever been thinking of complementing the P3/M20 with a subwoofer? I have no idea if that might work, but it would be a wonderful solution for the small living room!

Actually, right at the top of my Designer's Briefing for the new speaker was the mandate that the bass had to be strong - unusually good for a small speaker - just like the P3ES2 which is a class-leader for bass output.

You've reminded me - we did make a speaker stand-subwoofer product called the Harbeth Xtender some years back, but many users reported that there was enough bass for typical music even without the Xtender. However, it's an interesting concept and one we should look at again.

The bass of the P3ES2 is surprising indeed! But by nature, its size does not allow to reproduce a cello and double bass section of an orchestra in a believable way. That's where a dedicated subwoofer for the P3 could be of great help. Personally, I would like to have a subwoofer as an extra box which I could hide behind the piano (or curtain) instead of a speaker-stand subwoofer: I remember the Rogers subwoofers for the LS 3/5a -- and never liked them aesthetically (and sound-wise!).

As a former owner of the P3-ES-2, and having just ordered the P3ESR, I agree the bass performance is great - for a 5" woofer in a small box. Whether it's "enough" bass is another question, however. Modern pop, rock and electronic music can have some seriously deep bass that a speaker like the P3ESR just isn't going to credibly reproduce....(cut)

That said, I'd like to throw my vote behind the development of a Harbeth-designed subwoofer system that would integrate properly with the P3ESR, and would provide real deep bass output. Maybe something like the old Xtenders, maybe a single box, maybe even an active option. I think the market would embrace it eagerly - I know I would.

I too would like a Harbeth made subwoofer for my P3ESR. Here is a letter I recently sent to a noted reseller of Harbeth speakers and other high end hi fidelity equipment.

Am considering purchasing a XLS200 MK2 Subwoofer for my LFD Zero LE III / Harbeth P3 ESR-3 system. My reason for considering a subwoofer is for complementing/supporting the low frequencies that are output from the relatively smaller sized combination "midfrequency/lower" frequency driver that the Harbeth P2 ESR-3 has.

Hopefully with the addition of this subwoofer I will be able to hear more of the (a) double bass sounds or (b) 'full orchestra' output,or (c) lower register sounds that are subdued in my smaller sized Harbeth speakers.

95% of my listening is music and 5% games. I am not a "bass thumper" or "play 'em loud" listener. Please note that my speakers are placed on my computer desktop with me sitting 2.5 feet in front of them.

--- The reseller's reply was "I am not a fan of Subs. They never seem to mate well and will likely muddy up the sound of the wonderful Harbeths."

If Harbeth is not planning to manufacture subs in the near future I would like to get some qualifying second opinions regarding integrating the XLS200 MK2 with a P3ESR2. Manufacturer's web site for the subwoofer is http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofe...00-DFandFF.htm. A review of this subwoofer with some graphically illustrated test results can be seen at http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...xls200-df.html

[ryder]

Hi,

If I'm not mistaken the LFD Zero III doesn't have line level outputs for the inclusion of a subwoofer. To add to that the subwoofer in consideration does not have speaker inputs from the amp, so I am not too sure in what ways the XLS200 MK2 sub can be hooked up to the LFD.

[Supersnake]

Hi, If I'm not mistaken the LFD Zero III doesn't have line level outputs for the inclusion of a subwoofer.

Thanks for your desire to help. The LFD Zero III does not have a dedicated line level output for a subwoofer but one can easily utilize the LFD line level speaker outputs to link to a subwoofer. Each of the four LFD Zero III output plugs that are dedicated for your speaker have both a banana plug component as well as a bare wire connector component.

I am already using the banana plug components to connect to my Harbeth R/L speakers. As for connecting to the subwoofer the Yellow, Black, and Red leads of the XLS200 Neutrik Speakon Interconnect will be bare wired and screwed down into the holes that you see on the shafts of those same 4 LFD speaker outlet plugs. In effect you are Bi-wiring the XLS to the output of your amplifier via your existing speaker plug. It's really quite easy and takes only seconds to hook everything up.

To add to that the subwoofer in consideration does not have speaker inputs from the amp, so I am not too sure in what ways the XLS200 MK2 sub can be hooked up to the LFD.

Oh but it does. The XLS200 subwoofer has a neutrik outlet in which one inserts the Neutrik plug.
All of what you are looking for is the function of the Neutrik Speakon Interconnect.

I created and attached a screenshot of how everything gets hooked up. When you view it please disregard the Iead I labled: "This lead is not used -ignore" (I did not have time to Photoshop it out) The reason being the Neutrik cable has only three leads and is arranged this way to preserve the star earthing of the LFD Zero III amplifier (it has a star earth arrangement).

[Vlado]

Hi Supersnake,
the high level connection mentioned in XLS200 manual is NOT valid for all amplifiers,
so be careful with experimentation!

Cheers

[Supersnake]

Hi Supersnake,
the high level connection mentioned in XLS200 manual is not valid for ALL amplifiers,
so be careful with experimentation!
Cheers

The LFD Amp is not a Class D digital output therfore it is valid for High Level.

[ryder]

Supersnake - my apologies. I did not open up the manual to check. It does appear that the sub can be connected to the LFD's speaker inputs via Neutik lead.

I have listened to the P3ESR briefly in my friend's system. Very nice musical speakers. The bass evidently does not go too low compared to the bigger speakers but my friend can live with it since the spekers were in his secondary system. His main system is based on the 40.1. FWIW I am using a subwoofer that costs higher than the SHL5 with good results. Even in my small room the subwoofer made an appreciable difference to the overall presentation of the music especially with some of my electric guitar albums that have lots of bass. When I placed the SHL5 in a considerably larger living room in free space the bass clearly gets "lost", and even the incorporation of the sub failed to reproduce the SPLs of the bass frequencies in full effect as compared to when the speakers were in the smaller dedicated room. For other types of music that do not have much bass the sub was not in use. In other words it also depends on the type of music one is listening to apart from the listening space and priorities.

[Vlado]

The LFD Amp is not a Class D.

It is not related to amplifier class. Some amplifiers have NOT common ground.

[EricW]

I'll still put up my hand for an Xtender-type system for the P3ESR, if this becomes feasible for Harbeth to produce, particularly if such a system would allow the bass module to be actively crossed and separately amplified, easing the strain on the main driver.

As long as we're dreaming in Technicolour, what about an integrated electronic crossover and 4-channel power amplifier to drive such a system, the only thing being required upstream being a source and a preamp, or even just a passive volume control. Now that would be something.

[Supersnake]

Supersnake - my apologies. I did not open up the manual to check. It does appear that the sub can be connected to the LFD's speaker inputs via Neutik lead.

No need to apologize (smile).

I have listened to the P3ESR briefly in my friend's system. Very nice musical speakers. The bass evidently does not go too low compared to the bigger speakers but my friend can live with it since the speakers were in his secondary system. His main system is based on the 40.1. FWIW I am using a subwoofer that costs higher than the SHL5 with good results. Even in my small room the subwoofer made an appreciable difference to the overall presentation of the music especially with some of my electric guitar albums that have lots of bass. When I placed the SHL5 in a considerably larger living room in free space the bass clearly gets "lost", and even the incorporation of the sub failed to reproduce the SPLs of the bass frequencies in full effect as compared to when the speakers were in the smaller dedicated room. For other types of music that do not have much bass the sub was not in use. In other words it also depends on the type of music one is listening to apart from the listening space and priorities.

Thank you! I was hoping that someone would be revealing that a subwoofer was enhancing the bass output of their Harbeth speakers. Aside from the dichotomous 'bringing out the bass' and having the bass get 'lost' have you noticed any enhancement of tonal quality in the bass with the use of a subwoofer? Routing the same signal leaving the amplifier to both the subwoofer and the speakers is intended to bolster and enhance the character and tonal balance from the Harbeth's to the sub bass. The designers of the XLS2000 cite this manner of interconnecting their sub with the user's speakers and amplifier as being one of their features. Albeit, the developers of competing brands of subwoofers cite the same feature the end user must insure that he obtains the best sub for his needs and finances.

Now that l have said all that I did may I inquire if Harbeth will be manufacturing sub-woofers?

[Supersnake]

I'll still put up my hand for an Xtender-type system for the P3ESR, if this becomes feasible for Harbeth to produce, particularly if such a system would allow the bass module to be actively crossed and separately amplified, easing the strain on the main driver.

I'll second that motion. I'm sure we could rattle off the names of the brands of all the better made subwoofers that have established themselves as having already incorporated those features. Have demonstrated my preference for quality workmanship by purchasing a pair of Harbeth speakers and would gladly defer my quest to search outside of Lindfield for a subwoofer if Harbeth would make a new and improved Xtender-type system that I could marry to my P3ESR.

Want to go on record saying that I am not seeking embellished (non-natural sounding) bass on my P3ESR but am looking to bring out the low frequencies that are diminished when compared to the P3's bigger brothers without having to trade up to a C7 or a SHL5.

[EricW]

What Harbeth folks have said at various times is that they don't discuss product development publicly. This is particularly understandable for new speaker models and developments - you don't want to negatively affect your sales of (perfectly good) current product because your customers start to hold off purchases in favour of waiting for the "new and improved" model.

However, where there's no current equivalent in the line (i.e. subwoofers and electronics) I wonder if Harbeth might relax their policy just a little, and give us a glimpse or two of what might be in the future.

[keithwwk]

I was a subs player --> anti sub after I failed to int the subs I owned.

But, just recently I heard my friend int a at least 15yrs old REL strata sub, a 60wtts powered sub only, with SHL5 with incredible result. No booming bass, no blur bass, no slow bass, no smoky bass, no lagging bass, can not localise the sub and feel rather hear the bass...Be very honest, that is the 1st time I heard a sub can int perfectly with stereo speakers play all kind of music musically...Lesson learnt. If got chance, I want to re-experience sub int to my harbeth again.

Hi Supersnake,

May I know if you had tried by yourself to connect the LFD Zero III speaker output to the nuetrik input on the SLX200 mkII?

I think Valdo concern is really need to be carefull with.

Cheers

[A.S.]

Thanks for the feedback and interest in a Harbeth subwoofer. Truthfully, I am not taking on any development projects at the moment. The last couple of years has committed me to intense activity on the M40.1 design and P3ESR and some other projects. During that time I put on-hold many other business-related tasks including amongst many other things, scanning and digitising my entire engineering archive including all the old BBC papers back to the 1930s. Until I have "tidied my desk" as it were, I will not be taking on any new work. I think one eventually gets to the point where one feels that to mentally move forward, one needs to step back a few paces!

Incidentally, this industrial grade high-speed HP auto-sheet feed scanner is an amazing machine; it really does scan about 30 sheets of A4 a minute. One thing I've had to investigate though is deciding what the best long-term document archive format is; one that will still be readable in fifty years time. I'm now appreciating the true value of what we have together nurtured at Harbeth and the importance of reliable long-term archival.

[ryder]

Aside from the dichotomous 'bringing out the bass' and having the bass get 'lost' have you noticed any enhancement of tonal quality in the bass with the use of a subwoofer? Routing the same signal leaving the amplifier to both the subwoofer and the speakers is intended to bolster and enhance the character and tonal balance from the Harbeth's to the sub bass.

Yes, not only the tonality of the bass is enhanced but the overall presentation as well depending the crossover settings on the subwoofer. A little overlap in bass frequencies extending into the lower midrange will yield a fuller and meatier sound apart from getting more slam in the lower registers.

[Supersnake]

Yes, not only the tonality of the bass is enhanced but the overall presentation as well depending the crossover settings on the subwoofer. A little overlap in bass frequencies extending into the lower midrange will yield a fuller and meatier sound apart from getting more slam in the lower registers.

A big smile is showing on my face now...
Glad to read this - thanks!

[keithwwk]

A big smile is showing on my face now...
Glad to read this - thanks!

Hi Supersnake,

May I know if you had tried by yourself to connect the LFD Zero III speaker output to the nuetrik input on the SLX200 mkII?

Cheers

[Supersnake]

But, just recently I heard my friend int a at least 15yrs old REL strata sub, a 60wtts powered sub only, with SHL5 with incredible result. No booming bass, no blur bass, no slow bass, no smoky bass, no lagging bass, can not localise the sub and feel rather hear the bass...Be very honest, that is the 1st time I heard a sub can int perfectly with stereo speakers play all kind of music musically...Lesson learnt. If got chance, I want to re-experience sub int to my harbeth again.

My pulse has increased reading that, am glad to learn what you reported.

May I know if you had tried by yourself to connect the LFD Zero III speaker output to the nuetrik input on the SLX200 mkII?

I haven't purchased the SLX200 yet. I wanted to obtain some reports such as yours before making my purchase.

I think Valdo concern is really need to be carefull with.

Thanks for your forewarning. Will check with the agent who sold me the LFD Zero III and will also check with the agent selling the subwoofer.

Best regards.

[keithwwk]

I haven't purchased the SLX200 yet. I wanted to obtain some reports such as yours before making my purchase.

Thanks for your forewarning. Will check with the agent who sold me the LFD Zero III and will also check with the agent selling the subwoofer.
Best regards.

Pls keep me posted...I do like to know if the LFD zero III can connected to the neutrik/high level.

[Supersnake]

Pls keep me posted...I do like to know if the LFD zero III can connected to the neutrik/high level.

I spoke to the English agent who sells the SLX200. He looked up some specifications on the LFD zero III and told me it being a Class A/B should pose no problems. I told him that some Harbeth forum members cautioned me to be sure the LFD can be connected to a netrik/high level. His reply was that he saw no reason to be concerned.

I was told that the UPS carriage (freight charge) to ship from England to where I live in the United States would cost $250 pounds. He offered to check with a private shipper in Great Britain or Ireland that may be less expensive. On top of the carriage there would also be USA import tariffs. Hearing this discourage me and I decided to look around for a different subwoofer that can be purchased in the United States.

And so I did...

Now I would like to get either the REL T3 for $598 (USD) http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_t3.htm
or a REL T2 for $798 (USD) http://www.sumikoaudio.net/rel/prod_t2.htm.

[ryder]

You can check with Tom_hankins on Audiogon as he is using a REL R-505 with the SHL5. Not too sure if he has tried the T-series of subwoofers on the Harbeth, and if yes he would be able to offer a better comparison between the T and R series of REL subs.