We may need MRI scan after all - audio nervosa

[yeecn]

Gan, I think Eric has already answered the question:

Call me a cockeyed optimist, but I'd like to think there's a middle ground between obsessional tweakery and listening on a transistor radio. Something like, oh, I don't know, the "golden mean".

Of course - the middle ground would depends on individual, and would change in time as well. For the past 10 years - it was an old Rotel loaned to me. For now P3 + AVR or mini stereo is good enough. I do have a C7 - if I were to do it again P3 would have been be a more practical choice.

There is indeed a deception that exploits the compulsive nature of human. The rows and rows of ever more expensive equipments created the illusion that sound quality is directly proportional to the price of the item. This is the notion that I am challenging. There are many cases of people getting into financial ruins for chasing something that do not add enjoyment to life.

I almost got 'persuaded' into paying much more than what I should have paid. I was ready to pay 3 times more for the speakers - but luckily I discovered Harbeth early enough. I was in dilemma about proper amplifiers for months. But now - AVR and mini stereo is good enough, despite whatever the mainstream audiophile opinion is.

I considered Harbeth a honest value for money type of product. But even so I would not recommend it for everybody. I would not even consider this option myself until recently. It is only one has worked hard enough to establish a stable financial circumstance that one can afford this bit of luxury.

[A.S.]

... but luckily I discovered Harbeth early enough. I was in dilemma about proper amplifiers for months...

We must be careful not to frighten those who have applied a proper skepticism to the purchasing of audio equipment (shoes, cars, computers or whatever) and contrast them with those who, for whatever reason, have been vulnerable to marketing. We should not forget that in a modern society, our socio-economic model is based on consumption. We need to buy goods and services. Money needs to rotate through our economic system as fast as possible. The global economy since 2008 has tasted the 'green' alternative society and sitting at home, cold and unable to pay the bills doesn't appeal. We need to buy things - we don't know any other way of providing rising living standards for the majority of people.

So the problem really isn't one of production, nor is it one of marketing, since the supply side merely puts on the shelf products which conceivably could find a buyer, somewhere. The issue then is solely the inappropriate purchase of those goods by consumers for whom they were not intended, and the subsequent failure of those goods to satisfy the consumer. But if we are really honest, that incorrect purchase is entirely the consumers fault, not the suppliers. So if for example HiFi MegaMonthly magazine runs a story that amplifier X is the best in the world, they are merely doing their job of making us aware of the existence of the product. Some mental process in the consumer's brain then takes over and turns an awareness into an action or even a compulsion - the desire to acquire and own the product perhaps with financially ruinous consequences

I see production and consumption for what it is; an essential part of the modern economy which fuels all our lives and finances our social services and our high standard of living. The point I've tried to convey these past years is that if you do not apply proper due dilligance to completely satisfy yourself that the purchase is a wise one and that it will do what you want and expect, then you can only blame yourself. The trick is to develop the ability to step outside your own body in the sales situation and better appreciate the processes going on in your brain.

All of us have allowed our hearts to rule our heads at one time or another. Usually the financial cost of that mistake is small - but sometimes it can indeed be ruinous as the soaring divorce rate affirms. Is it really sensible to marry on your first date? Is it really wise to rush into a hi-fi store clutching HiFI MegaMonthly in your sweaty hand begging to be sold the latest, greatest kit? From the salesman's perspective, you've thrown yourself at his feet and all caution to the wind. Is it any wonder he empties your wallet? Of course not! That's his job!

A good dealer is worth his weight in gold. He understands you better than you think. Tell him about your hi-fi journey and the good and bad phases. He want a life long sales relationship with you and that's only possible by selling you what you really need rather than what you think you need.

Personally, I'd leave HiFi MegaMonthly at home and visit a trusted Harbeth dealer who, unlike the magazine, will be held accountable by you for the advice he gives. And he's happy to take-on that responsibility because he too, is in it for the long run.

[yeecn]

Yes, Sam, the Harbeth dealer in Malaysia has been doing a good job in demonstrating Harbeth in very inexpensive setup. He took pride and delight in being able to astonish potential buyers with his modest setup. His indifference for super expensive amplifiers played a part in shaping my view on amplifiers.

I actually seriously think that there is something fundamentally very wrong with consumerism. The model of sellers trying to push/entice buyers to consume as much as possible is simply not sustainable. The bottom line is that the earth simply cannot sustain our current rate of exploitation of natural resources. This type of mindset also lead to all sorts of excesses and social ills. If the current chaos is any indication at all, I think humanity is in for a rough shakeup. But this is not the right forum to discuss these things.

I admire Harbeth because it is built to last, it will not get out of fashion and it will be treasured and taken good care of. It is an anti-consumerism type of product.

[A.S.]

I actually seriously think that there is something fundamentally very wrong with consumerism. The model of sellers trying to push/entice buyers to consume as much as possible is simply not sustainable...

Whilst I agree I'd reiterate my point that whilst we (thinkers) fear it may not be sustainable, we know of no other economic system that can generate the living standard we enjoy.

Yes, I'd agree that Harbeth (and that means me) are/is a responsible producer and yes, it gives me immense satisfaction to invoke as few resources as we do in making our loudspeakers that last for so long. If we could use less resources we would. Again, I'd take issue with your comments that sellers 'push/entice' consumers. That's what sellers do! That's why sellers engage (expensive) sales and marketing people! If the orders just kept rolling-in then they wouldn't have to. And once those sales people are in the saddle, they naturally use every trick in the book to entice you, just as a pretty girl would at a party. You can always say no!

Whatever you or I say, we cannot turn consumerism on its head. The Green party have been trying to do that for about thirty years and made little headway. And I for one don't want to give up flying and meeting so many Harbeth users thousands of miles from home. Nor do I want to live and work in a Bodger's Hovel deep in the woods. So the issue is not (really) our dissatisfaction with consumerism per se, but our disgust at reckless, wasted consumerism that doesn't provide the anticipated satisfaction. But since that doesn't apply to a Harbeth user, I think we should can afford to let this one simmer. We are not going to change society. The best we can do is to be aware of those pulling our strings.

[DrewTurner]

Alan, If you feel so strongly that we should disregard the opinions of HIFI MegaMonthly,why then do not hesitate to post their positive reviews of your products on your website? Why do you even support these publications with advertising revenue promoting the Harbeth line in their pages.You seem to have such contempt for for audiophile reviewers in general,yet you proudly notify us of the latest award Harbeth has received from the same magazines that employ these reviewers and publish their reviews.It seems to me that the majority of magazines such as Stereophile,TAS, What HIFI and numerous online publications have been have been nothing but fair and objective when reviewing Harbeth speakers and have given your products many glowing reviews.I'm sure none of these positive reviews have impacted on your bottom line negatively.As I've said before in a previous post,if it were not the wonderful, informative review of the SHL5'S written by Sam Tellig of Stereophile (MEGA MONTHLY),I would never have known the Harbeth Company exsisted.

[A.S.]

Now really Drew, that is a misrepresentation of my position. Only a complete idiot - and an ungrateful one at that - would be so stupid to bite the hand that feeds him. Why you have associated the fictitious HiF MegaMonthly with one of hundreds of hi-fi magazines eludes me and is plain wrong.

What I thought I was making crystal clear, in what I thought was a very carefully worded post (I thought one of my better ones) was that the sales side of the industry, including the magazines, have an essential role to play in a consumer society. I don't know why this hasn't communicated correctly but what I was stating was that the production/selling side will do its very best to produce and sell. If the consumer wants to retain a degree of disconnection from the making/selling process and doesn't want to play the game (i.e. consume) then it is the consumer who must take steps to disconnect. Not the seller. By drawing attention to particular reviews we are merely doing what seller/producers should do: making the audience aware of what we have to sell. That's how commerce works. As I said, what really makes the difference is a good dealer. There is no substitute for a personal relationship with a specialist dealer. And if you do have one within striking distance, please don't insult his intelligence and skill by arriving with HiFi MegaMonthly in hand and rigid ideas. Many apparently do. To quote myself:

A good dealer is worth his weight in gold. He understands you better than you think. Tell him about your hi-fi journey and the good and bad phases. He want a life long sales relationship with you and that's only possible by selling you what you really need rather than what you think you need.
Personally, I'd leave HiFi MegaMonthly at home and visit a trusted Harbeth dealer who, unlike the magazine, will be held accountable by you for the advice he gives. And he's happy to take-on that responsibility because he too, is in it for the long run.

Much of what we comment on here relates to perceived practices in the rump of a once-great industry, and most definitely not to Harbeth specifically. We have been lucky perhaps, at arms length from the industry. But that doesn't mean we have lost all sense of objectivity and proportionality. We can, as I said, see the game from both sides.

And to say that I have contempt for audiophile reviewers is a complete falsehood. I have stressed in numerous posts how difficult their role is and how I wouldn't step into their shoes for any amount of fame or cash. The expectations of a hi-fi reviewer are immense. They just can't win. I suggest you read my actual opinion here. I'd also like to remind you that I have on numerous occasions said 'our door is always open to reviewers who want to understand us or our products'. I'm extremely busy, but I'm always most willing to make the time to talk to reviewers, especially those who are sufficiently curious to actually visit us. The better they understand Harbeth, the more accurate copy they can write, and the better your feel of what our brand stands for.

[honmanm]

Uh-oh, I've been off obsessing about some software bugs and I've been missing everyone else obsessing about obsessions?

Jokes aside, I'd like to suggest a different point of view (as ever with my theories, you can take 'em or leave 'em - usually the latter!):

Each of us has a personality which we can't really change, there are things that energise us and other things that drain us. And usually our biggest strength is also our biggest weakness... when you know who you are, you can channel your energies into productive rather than destructive activities.

So for example we have a friend who really enjoys the chase of purchasing equipment, and as a result got himself into financial trouble as a young man. But he has learned to channel that energy into helping other people research their purchases, and limits his own purchases to insanely great secondhand bargains. So he still has enough gear for about 7 systems - but probably hasn't spent more than the retail price of a pair of Harbeths.

Hobbies add spice to our lives, we just have to make sure that there is more meat and potatoes than spice in our existence!

[kittykat]

We must be careful not to frighten those who have applied a proper skepticism to the purchasing of audio equipment (shoes, cars, computers or whatever) and contrast them with those who, for whatever reason, have been vulnerable to marketing.

Yes, and imho, probably wouldn’t push it to the extent of calling the whole industry as being deceptive or even dishonest. There are honest manufacturers out there, other than Harbeth of course, who clearly state and do commit through their reasonable prices and good performance eg. Parasound/ Nad. There are not too many of them unfortunately. There are many more however who offer good performance products at a good price but are too fearful of sullying their brand through an outright projection of reasonable prices for the fear of consumers equating it with mediocre performance (as mentioned by Alan much deeper into earlier threads). Perhaps this is the aspect of consumerism which needs to be addressed ie. misconception and equation of performance with price (and particularly price points). This is where the consumer needs to do the hard yards of research, instead of just relying on glossies. We have become a society where instant gratification is the order. I don’t hear too many people saying nowadays “im going to save to buy this or save to buy that….” . Saving as part of the process actually instils some rigour of diligence.

Ps: ive taken the brave step (more of the fear of venturing into the storeroom to look for the original boxes and packing) of selling 3 items on ebay, a pair of speakers (not Harbeths of course), a tube amp and an old tape recorder (and a cd player soon). We are indeed very irrational beings and can get strange attachments to unnecessary things. What is really worrisome is the number of people who follow what you don’t want. Have told myself ill need a right frontal lobotomy if I go and buy anything unnecessary in future.

Singing off. .. AA (Audiophilia anonymous.)

[yeecn]

Have told myself ill need a right frontal lobotomy if I go and buy anything unnecessary in future.

Singing off. .. AA (Audiophilia anonymous.)

What I think you need is a LEFT frontal lobotomy. It will render you into a zombie like existence with no urge to do anything whatsoever. A right frontal lobotomy will make you an uncontrollable maniac! The discoveries in neuroscience are truly fascinating.

I have a DAC and two Monster cables to get rid off. The monsters - even if I sell them at 1/4 the purchase price I would feel that I am ripping off somebody!
Singing off. .. your fellow AA.

[yeecn]

Here is an hard to find animation of human brain response to music. It is composed of MEG scan of the brain taken at 500ms intervals. The link to the media file is at the bottom of the page.

It would take an experienced neuroscientist to interpret the happenings in the brain. Towards the end there is a extensive lighting up of the left frontal lobe. The frontal lobe has a high concentration of dopamine receptors. Dopamine is a morphine like substance created in the mid-brain. It is the 'good feeling' chemistry of the brain.

The left frontal lobe governs the outgoing, cheerful, optimistic, risk taking side of the personality. The right frontal lobe in contrast governs the nurturing, prudence and pessimistic of the personality. I find it remarkable that the left frontal lobe response to music is so strong. This is a clear indication of the uplifting effect of music. You can see the complementary nature of the left and right frontal lobes. The two need to be kept in balance otherwise you will see a very lopsided personality.

Another activity that is demonstrated to activate the left frontal lobe is meditation. So the meditators can live with little but there are a jolly happy bunch of people! TV in contrast depresses the frontal lobe activities. I believe it contributes much to the current delinquency problems. I have just unsubscribed our satellite TV. We have been watching very few TV since I setup the sound system. Last weekend we spent some 4 hours glued in front of the TV, and at the end of it my wife and I were telling each other how drained we felt.

The frontal lobe is the most important part of the brain. Most personality disorders correspond to some malfunctioning of the frontal lobes.

The human brain is a highly intriguing subject. The advancement in various scan technologies have been unlocking a lot of its secrets in recent years. It is perhaps the branch of medical science that has made the most advancement in recent years. This is a very written book on this fascinating subject: Mapping the Mind.

[DrewTurner]

I stand corrected Alan.Thanks for your measured response.

[A.S.]

No problem. Glad I could clear up the misunderstanding. My gripe is merely one of the consumer dropping his guard and then bitterly regretting making the wrong purchase - for his needs. One really can't blame the producer/seller for that; the consumer was not frogmarched into the dealers and forced to hand over his money. So he must take personal responsibility for his incorrect actions - he is more culpable in fact than the producer/seller.

As a contributor noted, problems start for the consumer when he feels under time pressure to make a quick purchasing decision. If funds are unlimited then a wrong decision really isn't a big issue. But for ordinary people (like me) if I invest in the wrong equipment (car, computer, camera etc.) then I may not have the funds to replace it, and must live with the consequences and frustration. A good dealer understands that purchasing audio equipment is a big decision, and that much long term satisfaction derives from the correct - or should I say appropriate - marriage between the user's needs and the equipment. He will not hassle or hurry the customer, certainly not into a short-term invariably wrong decision.

I believe one factor that Harbeth users are such a contented bunch is that they've taken the time to do their research, and find an empathy between the brand's philosophy, the product performance and their needs.

[Sebastien]

Here is an hard to find animation of human brain response to music...

It will be interesting to do one MEG scan while listening to Harbeth and another one listening to other speakers. :-)

Sebastien

[A.S.]

Music design to soothe whist being MRI tested etc. here (sample can be played by selecting high or low quality in left side app box).

[Kathylim]

With all these talk about audiophile deception, the big audio scam, audiophilia nervosa & what not, i just can't help but feel that if one is so polarised to these extremes, then one shouldn't even be listening to Harbeth loudspeakers, much less be in this forum & supporting the Harbeth integrated amplifier. Does it even make sense at all? Pardon me for saying this but I think its getting very contradictory here.

I couldnt agree with you more and since having read this thread from day 1, I ask myself why are there so many speakers in the Harbeth stable. Surely if enjoying music is the ultimate goal, then there is no need for such a range or for that matter why even a Harbeth speaker.

Mention is made of cults and really from where I sit, Harbeth users run the risk of being labelled (if they arent already) a cult within cult, when there is talk of "we listen to a wash of sound", " we love our beloved Harbeths", "we love our music (seems to suggest others dont) etc. I am sorry but my wife a beloved? YES! a speaker? in that context I agree whole heartedly it must be a neurosis.

Yes we can go on debating this topic and there are truths and fallacies at both extremes. I for one fall in that camp where I believe there are differences in the sound amps produce. I dont subscribe to the view that expensive equipment is necessary towards enjoying music but I have no qualms in buying one if it suits my purposes. My ears and my money.

And yes....I have fallen prey to some unscrupulous hifi dealers before.

As Mr. Yee lives in my part of the world I extend an offer to him to pop by to listen to two different amps , one a solid state and the other a tube amp running with 6L6GC tubes. I have lived with these two amps for a considerable while, no longer a matter of being seduced, the honeymoon long over!!!

I will keep it simple. Just two music tracks featuring french horns, double bass and another with a drum kit, cymbals, high hats, kick drums. Just tones and the speed at which the drums are played. If at the end of it, a difference cant be heard, then I must wonder whether it is a matter of a ear test or MRI.

As someone said recently in a response " and they thought the world was flat until Copernicus".

[Gan CK]

I recall reading Sam Tellig's comment that there exists a special bond between a Harbeth user & the Harbeth owned. Now that's really a very fine line threading between developing a bond & becoming a cult.

Personally, i do agree with Sam's statement about the bondage thingy because i have also developed this bondage with my SHL-5. Even more so after i think i've found the ideal amp to drive em. And that is after having tried a number of different amps with the excellent SHL-5. )

I strongly urge Yeecn to take up Kathylim's friendly invitation to listen to his 2 different amps & see where the difference between the 2 amps lie. Just keep an open mind prior to the visitation.

[A.S.]

I think that there is a world of difference between a warm empathy with (or for) a brand or product and a cult. Obviously it is a good thing if consumers appreciate what we do and want to be part of that movement. But I don't think cult status is healthy or desirable. Remember - the overwhelming majority of members here are silent - reading, ruminating and absorbing what a handful of us write. Our top priority surely must be to open the doors to more ordinary user's opinions. In other words, to strive not to be a cult.

No matter how enthusiastic we become, if we don't approximately represent the views of the normal silent majority we will be talking to ourselves. That's the downside of taking extreme positions, and very bad for long term business.

[yeecn]

As Mr. Yee lives in my part of the world I extend an offer to him to pop by to listen to two different amps , one a solid state and the other a tube amp running with 6L6GC tubes. I have lived with these two amps for a considerable while, no longer a matter of being seduced, the honeymoon long over!!! I will keep it simple. Just two music tracks featuring french horns, double bass and another with a drum kit, cymbals, high hats, kick drums. Just tones and the speed at which the drums are played. If at the end of it, a difference cant be heard, then I must wonder whether it is a matter of a ear test or MRI.

I do have a keen interest in doing an ABX test under a controlled environment, with proper ABX box and sound level matching etc. I have in fact spent hours doing sound comparison on my own - with or without voltage stabilizer, with/without DAC, DAC1 vs DAC2, Dolby Digital vs DTS vs PCM etc. The result has always been inconclusive. It is always the matter of now I think I hear it now I don't. After many frustrating hours I turned my attention to the investigation of the physiology of hearing, and found some interesting facts. Firstly there is a buffer area that receives raw sound. It is called the echoic memory. Form there the sound was interpreted into speech, tunes, pitch and other information like approaching footsteps.

Now the echoic memory only has a retention span of 2-5 seconds. That means that by the time I get up and change the cables etc, whatever sound from the previous configuration is long gone. What I am left are secondary information like tune - which is already too far remote to make any meaningful comparison. Maybe some people will have longer span of the echoic memory, but I have not seen any documented cases yet. I believe that the echoic memory has to be short, just long enough to extract whatever useful information - "Take the garbage out", the French horn playing a beautiful melody, the baby is crying in distress, footsteps approaching in the dark - and fade away as fast as possible so that it will not interfere with the next stimulus.

It is the same with visual memory. Most of us only retains the relevant happening within our field of vision, and ignores all the rest. There are people who demonstrate photographic memory. One case I seen can take a helicopter flight over London and draw a bird eye view of London with photographic details. That person handicapped severely in other aspects of life. He could not tie his shoelace for example. These people are commonly referred to as the idiot savant.

So to do a meaningful comparison rapid switching is a must. I have seen many references stating rapid switching as being the golden standard for sound comparison. I think it is referring to the rapid decay nature of the echoic memory.

Then I will have to let go of my usually interpretive processes. I have to stop listening the sound as music, speech or the clang of a cymbal. I am not sure I am able to set aside conditioning that has been active for 50 years. Even if I can do that - what do I listen to?

I read an interview of Alan where he said something like: "Close your eyes - and listen to the sound around you. Can you hear how distant they are?" I was startled by that statement. I NEVER listen to sounds that way. It has no survival value for me to listen to sound that way, and I was never taught to listen that way. How many more ways do I NOT know how to listen to? I have came to the conclusion I cannot do a proper sound comparison. I am simply not trained for it. There is no way for me to make a meaningful judgment as to how one sound is 'better' than an other.

I do make judgment on sound. I do judge that Harbeth is better than any other speakers I ever owned. My judgment is base on the following: 1) I can hear all the tunes. 2) The instruments sounds real and I can differentiate all the instruments with no efforts. 3) I can turn the volume up, or turn it down to the whispering level and I can still hear all the details. 4) I can listen to it for hours and hours and I don't get tired.

In short - my judgment is primarily based on the secondary effects how Harbeth facilitates my music enjoyment, not a direct judgment on the sound quality. I can make a general statement that Harbeth sound is natural. But what does 'natural' means? Harbeth sounded like there is a cello in the living room. But does it really sounds like the original cello in the recording studio?

I have download an ABX program in my computer. It will allow me to do some sound comparison, but it have have to be limited to comparing mp3 files compressed with different bit rates, comparing 16bits vs 15bits vs 14 bits encoding etc. But frankly after the many frustrating hours I am so sick of sound comparison that I won't have any inclination to fire up the program for some time to come. I am still interested in a properly setup ABX experiment. But my focus will be on investigating the cognitive process. I have very little interest on the equipments at present.

[Emphasis added by A.S. to this very interesting posting]

[EricW]

No matter how enthusiastic we become, if we don't approximately represent the views of the normal silent majority we will be talking to ourselves. That's the downside of taking extreme positions, and very bad for long term business.

I was recently able to visit my Harbeth dealer as I was interested in comparing my P3ESRs with the other models in the Harbeth range, something I'd not previously been able to do. A summary of my observations (which, obviously, others may disagree with - YMMV):

• Every Harbeth model is an enjoyable, natural-sounding, musical communicator. All bear a strong family resemblance in terms of sound. All make beautiful music.
• My preferences were basically commensurate with the size/price of the speaker: as they got larger and more expensive, I liked them proportionately more. The detail was always there, but the sense of ease and expressiveness basically increased with the size of the speaker (and the price, unfortunately). This was not necessarily what I expected.
• The newer models (P3ESR and Compact 7ES3) sounded just slightly more neutral than the older speakers (M30 and Super HL5). However, this, to me, didn't necessarily make them more enjoyable to listen to or more involving - just different. Again, contrary to my expectations.
• The M40.1 is just an awesome speaker. Pick an adjective: it does everything well. But what strikes me about it the most is its tremendously easeful, musical presentation - it just never sounds like it's working hard. It's both relaxing and involving. Well worth it if you have the funds.

For me, the second-place finisher to the M40.1 is the Super HL5. To me, they sound easeful, exuberant and enjoyable. I like my P3ESRs very much, but I find the "bigness" of the Super HL5's tone very seductive. I am currently mulling over whether finances permit the acquisition of a pair at this time. If I do get them, they may well be the speakers I'm buried with (or, alternatively, my heirs and successors end up inheriting).

[A.S.]

...Now the echoic memory only has a retention span of 2-5 seconds. That means that by the time I get up and change the cables etc, whatever sound from the previous configuration is long gone ... So to do a meaningful comparison rapid switching is a must. I have seen many references stating rapid switching as being the golden standard for sound comparison...

Absolutely correct and I've been saying this for decades.

I'd like to continue this echoic memory/rapid switching comment on on another thread please. Yeecn, could you please re-state and condense your findings about echoic memory and create a new post please. Then we can explore this better. Please add a new post here.