My ears Problem with PlayStation3 and Rega Apollo

[Tran Khoa]

So i just bought a Rega Apollo to replace my PS3. I remembered the first time i opened the boxes of my SHL5 and the Rogue Cronus Magmun.( int.Amp). I used the PS3 as the source. My wife told me wow it's quiet..! There was no noise compaired to my Yamaha ht.

I told her what i needed was a better CDP than this PS3... because it will be more quiet and more musical. Today i plugged the Rega Apollo in. And i noticed i have to crank up the volume of my Amp. to have to same soundstage as the PS3. Yes the Apollo sound more musical a bit. But my wife face look like PS3 sound better. She told why to spend money for something that not better than a PS3. I searched over the WEB , and ppl said that PS3 is a bit noisy. So i ran and borrowed my sister PS3 80 gig , PLus my friend PS3 Slim 120 gig, and mine 160 gig.

I don't know why but my PS3 has no noise compared to the 2 others PS3. I will test more tomorrow. maybe in the morning my ears will tell me more.

[HUG-1]

What is a "PS3"? Who makes it?

[Tran Khoa]

PS3 = PLaystation 3

[Labarum]

To answer the question, Sony make the PS3 games console. It will play CDs, DVDs and Bluray discs. With limitations it will stream audio from the home network, from BBC iPlayer and from other internet radio stations.

The internal DAC is no more than OK - an good quality external DAC will improve it's audio playback a good deal.

[Sebastien]

PS3 = PLaystation 3

It looks that a lot of people use this as their cd player. Even a well known hifi magazine had made a review of the the Playstation and they were quite impress by it. Some say a good "bang for the buck".

Sebastien

[Labarum]

And many think highly of the multi format disc players by Oppo.

[Euler]

And many think highly of the multi format disc players by Oppo.

I'm one of those many. The Oppo bluray player BDP-83 plays bluray, standard dvd, sacd, cd.

Bruce

[Labarum]

I'm one of those many. The Oppo bluray player BDP-83 plays bluray, standard dvd, sacd, cd.

Bruce

Do you use the internal DAC or another?

[EricW]

The Oppo BDP-83 "Special Edition" uses an ESS Sabre DAC and is supposed to be exceptionally good sonically, according to the online reviews. However, you only get the benefit of the DAC using the analog outputs, so it's really a player that should appeal more to two-channel listeners (for surround using HDMI, the standard BDP-83 is less money). If you do a bit of searching, you'll see that the SE gets fairly rave reviews, and seems even more attractive when you consider the multi-format capability and the not unreasonable price. I've been considering one myself.

As for Tran Khoa's issue, it's hard for me to believe that the Rega Apollo is inferior sonically to a Sony Playstation. It sounds to me as though it may simply have a lower output (he says "I have to crank up the volume of my amp to have the same soundstage" but then says when he does so the Rega is a "bit more musical"). I guess another example of why it's so important to equalize levels before you can hope to make any kind of accurate comparison between two products.

[Tran Khoa]

yes i listened again today. i think, because of the long ride yesterday i was tire, so my ears get me wrong. Yes the PS3 is lounder but i dont feel the music throught it . the Rega is very good and precise. I can hear all the instruements separated. But i guess i need something better. 1. Bryston Dac, or BCD-1. or start to build LP. ... I'm still scratching my head. because PS3 cost 300$ with a nice blue-ray, play games, upconverting your DVD. Put your pictures, etc., A Rega Apollo, is only a CDP with a better DAC, cost 1000$...
I think everyone in here, the most expensive things in your house is your HI-FI system. Even a Piano cost less.

[kittykat]

Even a Piano cost less.

Yes, was chatting over the weekend and its true. Hifi is perceived (and priced) like a luxury item compared to home theatre (including lcd/ plasma tv’s) which is seen as a commodity. The technology in a lcd tv seems to be much more complex than a cd player or an amplifier. Or for a more level comparison, a blue ray player against a “hifi” cd player which costs 2x more etc. Pricing is so arbitrary and we all get taken in by it.

[Labarum]

Hifi is perceived (and priced) like a luxury item compared to home theatre (including lcd/ plasma tv’s) which is seen as a commodity.

True.

Avoid the HiFi rip off.

A decent AV amp in direct mode (all signal processing switched off) will do an extremely good job of driving a pair of passive speakers.

Feed it from any computer you like, from a multi-format disc spinner, from a PS3, or from a streamer like a Squeezebox. If you still want to play LPs there are some very good phono amps you can hand off the back of the AV amp.

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/produ...-LPS/V-LPS.asp

The domestic loudspeaker is the only remaining area where the trad HiFi manufacturer has a worthwhile product when compared to what is available for far less from the computer shop or the pro-music shop.

[kittykat]

But i guess i need something better.

Think what you have will work perfectly, You already have a strong foundation in a setup ie. SHL5. They are very hard to improve on. Whatever more $$$ you put into your setup will result imo only very small differences, and imo not worth it. Ill be very happy with your system as it is. The more you listen to it, the more you'll appreciate it and not bother about it anymore.

[EricW]

Tran:

I agree that the Rega Apollo is a very fine player. You might discern an improvement by upgrading, you might not. But don't make a decision based on reviews or what you read on the Internet (even here!). And remember, "different" does not necessarily equal "better".

But if you can't shake the upgrade urge, why don't you go into the dealer where you purchased your Apollo and ask if you can compare it to a Rega Saturn. You should be able to plug the two of them into the same amp and compare side by side relatively easily. If you can hear a difference, and it's worth it to you, well, it's your money. If not, then you can rest easy knowing that the Apollo is giving you what you need, and further improvements are not required.

Either way, however, don't lose your peace of mind over it. Music should be a source of enjoyment, not a source of anxiety.

[hifi_dave]

The Saturn is significantly better than the Apollo which, in turn, is a lot better than the PS3 which is flat and uninvolving.

Another option for the Apollo owner is the up-coming Rega DAC. This should be with us in October at a projected price of £500.

[A.S.]

A decent AV amp in direct mode (all signal processing switched off) will do an extremely good job of driving a pair of passive speakers.

Now, you'll know that I'm not a great believer in huge sonic differences between amplifiers, but I feel I have to chip-in here. I have an (Arcam, about six years old) AV amp and its sonic performance is ruined by the digital hash from all of that computer circuitry which is crammed into the space no bigger than a standard hifi amp. You should see how densely packed the electronics are - there is barely an inch to spare.

And the consequence? Either via RF transmission and/or via the audio signal and/or via the PSU the digital circuits superimpose a continuous and loud mid and high frequency twittering which is completely unacceptable above about 1/4 volume. I do not know if this is typical of modern AV amps. I can say that this digital burbling was evident from new with my amp and is a design issue - hardly surprising bearing in mind how much digital technology is incorporated. We bought it for our last appearance at the London hifi show and, well, the issues noted above were a disappointment for such a well respected brand.

So, my advice - based on the likely AV amplifier's designer's objective to cram the unit with (digital) features - is don't expect hifi performance from any AV amp. I conceded that if you pay top dollars for a big (Japanese) brand AV amp then they will surely have the R&D resources to invest in sophisticated design and testing and may/will minimise the breakthrough issue, but at the budget end of the AV market you just cannot expect all those features and high fidelity performance.

The less digital circuitry in an amp the better chance that all the design effort will be on maximising the audio, analogue side.

P.S. Discussing this with Andy (Prodn. Manager) this morning he says that his old Sony AV amp built before HDMI as is my Arcam - never showed this problem. Maybe my experience is the consequence of subcontract-to-China-on-a-fixed-price and was the best they could do for the money. He's now using a Rega Brio 3 apm with his C7ES3s at home and very happy. And of course, such a simple amp concentrates all the circuitry on the audio performance. Obvious really.

P.P.S. In the hierarchy of design complexity, RF products (mobile phones, satellite comms, radio communications) are the most difficult because the frequencies are so high that signals do not obey nice, convenient, predictable PCB rules. So much depends on the skill of the RF designer to draw on his experience of what circuit layout (let alone functionality) will give the best result. Can you imagine how complex and difficult it is to design even $10 mobile phones? Re-position just one component or PCB track barely 0.1mm and the product may not work (see Apple's iPhone problems). In all digital consumer products every single tiny wire and PCB track acts as its own mini radio transmitter. So it is no surprise that an AV amp has to optimise the design for the fast, digital signals and accept that the analogue audio side must inevitably be compromised.

[Labarum]

Now, you'll know that I'm not a great believer in huge sonic differences between amplifiers, but I feel I have to chip-in here. I have an (Arcam, about six years old) AV amp and its sonic performance is ruined by the digital hash from all of that computer circuitry which is crammed into the space no bigger than a standard hifi amp . . .

P.S. Discussing this with Andy (Prodn. Manager) this morning he says that his old Sony AV amp built before HDMI as is my Arcam - never showed this problem . . .

I make my observation about the performance of AV amps after using my son's AV amp for a few months.

This Marantz box has 7x 100w power amps on board, a DAC, DSP wizzy bits and switching for a number of HDMI inputs, optical and coax S/PDIF - you name it.

Listening on my expensive headphones in pure direct two channel stereo I had very good clarity and no audible digital noise - the signal was as clean as from my Caiman DAC's phone amp.

The attached speakers were the weakness of the system, but again, with the main speakers bi-amped and driven in pure direct two channel stereo mode there was no hint of any digital noise.

The AV amp would drive my ageing MB Quart 980s floorstanders extremely well - no bi-amping possible - the result would be as good as the refurbished Quad 405-2 I normally use.

This Marantz AV amp was in a very big case and cost about £800 - I don't know what you can get with a HiFi "designer label" on it for that, or how different it would sound. You would be hard pressed to find a "HiFi" amp with internal DAC for that.

I would be happy to use that Marantz electronics with quality passive speakers.

[A.S.]

... there was no hint of any digital noise...

We'll that is interesting. Really? Just the slightest whisper of hiss and nothing else with your ear to the speaker?

If that is true then I am not at all amused at paying the manufacturer directly for unit I have. If you are right then something is chronically wrong with my AV amp. And to think, the reviews were good at the time. What does that tell you? I says to me that either my unit is atypical (you'd think as it was a trade supply arrangement that they'd check the unit before despatch) or I'm using it incorrectly or I'm overly sensitive.

That AV amp turned me off the whole concept of AV. I've watched only a handful of movies over the past years as I find the sqwaking and twittering infuriating. Next time Matantz - made in Japan or like mine, in China??

[Labarum]

We'll that is interesting. Really? Just the slightest whisper of hiss and nothing else with your ear to the speaker?

I don't normally listen to music with my head inside the speaker cone, Alan, so your specific question I cannot answer as the equipment is no longer in my flat. Listening on (indifferent) speakers from the sofa there was no noticable background noise; and when using high quaility phones there was no audible noise. Much to my surprise the headphone output from the AV amp using the AV amp's internal DAC was as good as the simpler signal path provided by the Beresford Caiman.

[EricW]

That AV amp turned me off the whole concept of AV. I've watched only a handful of movies over the past years as I find the sqwaking and twittering infuriating. ...

There is always the much simpler expedient of watching a movie using the two-channel analog output from your DVD or Blu-ray player, and dispensing with all the complicated surround hardware, the extra speakers and wiring, etc. Personally, I've never understood the desire to re-create the surround experience in the home - I'm content to have it in the theatre, but a good clear stereo soundtrack at home is more than good enough.

There's a bit of an irony here, I think. People have written on this forum about how we've moved to being much more of a visual culture than in the past, to the detriment of hi fi music reproduction. But at the same time, sound production in movies has been incredibly hyped-up as well. I just saw the new Christopher Nolan film, Inception, on the weekend and the soundtrack was intense (and at times painfully loud). Sounds like, for example, the shot of a pistol sounded only very slightly what they sound like in reality, which is a kind of sharp quick crack, and were made to sound like miniature cannons instead. And the bass ... I don't think there's any subwoofer made for home use that could hope to reproduce it.

Whereas I think some of the greatest fims ever made (e.g. Bergman, Kurosawa) had mono soundtracks of not terribly high quality. And it diminishes my enjoyment of them not in the slightest. I would rather watch The Seventh Seal with the 2-inch speakers in my TV than re-watch Inception on the finest surround system known to humankind.